How all-purpose a color profile is US Web Coated (SWOP) v2?

[Under S.]

Preparing CMYK PDF files for print (more specifically, for rollup banners) and while I've never had any problems leaving the default settings be -- in this case, a working space of US Web Coated (SWOP) v2 for CMYK projects -- I was wondering if I would benefit greatly switching to a more modern working space / color profile. If there's no tangible reason to, I'll just leave things be. Things have looked fine on the output so far.

[lambiloon]

Hi color profile which Photoshop select automatically when you choose CMYK color mode works great unless you have some specific need....Regards

[Under S.]

I'm not sure what that is, mine has been at US Web Coated (SWOP) v2 for CMYK from the start. And like I said, it has served me well so far. Should I leave well enough alone, or should I be sounding alarm and scrambling for a better one, even mid-project? (How big a deal is it that I'm using this profile for printing banners?)

[Derek Cross]

Why would you use CMYK profile for a Web press for a document that's to be printed on an inkjet printer (posssibly one that has CMYK Plus inks)?

[crgrove]

Greetings from the future! BASICALLY, I think that is the original poster's question... and also what I'm searching about. Large-Format inkjet printer profiles just don't seem to be out there...available. The working profiles, sure... but not SPECIFIC "PRINTER" profiles. Not that we can SEE and CHOOSE from a list. What I'm trying to figure out... after YEARS of just printing with the default, embedded SWOP profile, is, does our RIP software use it's own, UNKNOWABLE to the user, printer profile if we DE-select "Use Embedded Printer Profile". *shrugs*

[Stephen Marsh]

Greetings from the future! BASICALLY, I think that is the original poster's question... and also what I'm searching about. Large-Format inkjet printer profiles just don't seem to be out there...available. The working profiles, sure... but not SPECIFIC "PRINTER" profiles. Not that we can SEE and CHOOSE from a list. What I'm trying to figure out... after YEARS of just printing with the default, embedded SWOP profile, is, does our RIP software use it's own, UNKNOWABLE to the user, printer profile if we DE-select "Use Embedded Printer Profile". *shrugs*

By @crgrove

A device profile for an inkjet is either based around the printer driver or RIP settings used for that particular combination of substrate, inkset, resolution, number of passes etc.

Beyond the actual device/printer profile which describes the "full gamut" of the output condition, there may also be a profile that is the "target" which simulates another more common printing condition, such as an offset press condition. This could be a standard ICC profile, or perhaps an ICC DeviceLink profile directly connecting the target/simulation to the device/output profile.

Some large format RIP's may not even use a standard ICC profile "under the hood" as the device/printer description and may use their own proprietary colour lookup table (often the case in proofing RIPs).

[Stephen Marsh]

It would really depend on the output/destination that your service provider has their equipment set up for. Obviously, the roll-up banner is most likely being produced on a wide-format inkjet printer, which could be aqueous, latex or solvent ink-based and is obviously not a lithographic web press. It depends on how the RIP/DFE is set up to honour incoming RGB/CMYK ICC colour profiles or to make an overriding assumption of what ICC profile is used to define incoming RGB/CMYK data.

So, if your service provider is asking for CMYK PDF files, they really should be telling you what kind of CMYK.

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

There is only one answer to this question: you must ask them which CMYK profile they want you to use. Don't ask the customer relations people, they often don't know. Get an answer from the people who will actually do the printing.

A CMYK profile is a characterization of a press calibrated to a certain standard, using standardized inks on a certain medium. It's a description of the entire print process rolled up into one icc profile.

These standards vary around the world. SWOP is only a valid standard in North and South America. It doesn't apply anywhere else in the world. But in the US, the likelihood of US Web Coated (SWOP) being appropriate is high enough that they made it the Photoshop default.

In Europe, you'll most likely be asked for ISO Coated (ECI) 300%, or Coated FOGRA39 (which has 330% ink limit).

[Under S.]

I will make sure to ask, thanks.

But until I get that answer, or in the absence of one, is it generally safe to use the Photoshop default U.S Web Coated (SWOP) v2 for all-purpose print jobs in North America?

One would imagine that just the fact that it's the default CMYK profile in Photoshop, printers would be universally accommodating to it. But I also wonder if different language/region versions of Photoshop have different defaults for color profiles.

[Conrad_C]

The final answer depends on what level of color precision and quality control you are expected to meet, according to your contract.

If you always use US Web Coated SWOP v2, chances are it will print “mostly OK” in a lot of US shops, but “mostly OK” also means it’s always “partially not OK.” You will always be kind of right and kind of wrong. If you would like your color to be “completely OK” as often as possible, then always ask if there is a profile that represents the output conditions and proofing standard established for the current job at the current print shop.

As with any profile, the thing about US Web Coated SWOP v2 is that how it treats color is based on a long list of assumptions about how the press is set up. Presses are set up for the job requirements such as the specific paper and inks chosen for the job, not to accommodate Photoshop, so it isn’t realistic to expect printers to always adjust presses for a Photoshop default.

Here’s an article that has some information, including some history and the assumptions that go into US Web Coated SWOP v2:

Bit by Bit: Why Your Photoshop Color Separations Are Wrong — and How to Fix Them

For example, he points out that US Web Coated means it’s for a coated paper on a web offset press. But if your job is on uncoated paper, or on a sheetfed press, then it is not appropriate to choose a Web Coated profile. At the end he says:

“I prefer to use a custom profile for a particular press and paper combination if one is available…And, for the one percent of you who are preparing art for heat-set web-offset printing: use SWOP — that’s what it’s for.“

Given all that, it should be clear that US Web Coated SWOP v2 is certainly not “all purpose.” Instead, US Web Coated SWOP v2 is simply there as a generic fallback position (sort of an “I give up, even if it looks bad” option) if you are unable to get what you should have: A profile matched to the output conditions of the specific job.

And yes, different regions do have different defaults. You can see them yourself in Photoshop if you choose a non-US preset in the Settings menu in the Color Settings dialog box. Choosing a Europe preset sets the default CMYK profile to FOGRA39, and choosing a Japan preset sets the default to one of the Japan Color profiles.

[flybax]

• Color.org has an ICC Profile Registry which gives all necessary specs, such as; the paper that's being used, total ink amounts for that paper, etc.

• There is also information on IDEAlliance website for non-members. 

• For InkJet and/or wide format printers, there is a PrintWide2020-Idealliance.icc profile for a larger gamut profile.

• Ghent Workgroup or GWG.org/application-settings (all for the Adobe Creative Suite/Creative Cloud apps.)

I post this because I'm a prepress operator and a G7 Color Expert. Most file submissions to printing companies do not use the correct Destination Profile, they use the default settings in whatever application used. US WebCoated SWOPV2 is for web printing and the maximum ink limit due to web paper is 300%  in contrast to an actual offset printing ICC profile like GRACoLCoated2013.icc or CRPC-6 for Coated papers (max ink limit 320%) and GRACoLUncoated2013.icc or CRPC-3 for Uncoated papers (max ink limit 280%).

[Juanosses]

Hi flybax!

I'm a Designer working for a large agency and I usually work with print. I always ask for color profiles or preferred print settings but I often get a "just in CMYK" type of answer. Most of the jobs are for digital print and recently I found about the PRMG_v2.0.1_MR.icc which is found in the ICC site. It is also an extended gamut profile for what I understand meant to be used as a CMYK exchange.

Is it similar to the PrintWide2020-Idealliance.icc? Is it advisable to use these when it's digital print a no other specifications are provided?

I just wanna do what i can to provide the best outcome possible.
Thank you!

Here's the link to the profile ICC page 
https://www.color.org/exchange_space.xalter

[Lumigraphics]

A lot of digital RIPs will convert RGB files but professional digital can mean an inkjet for banner printing (https://epson.com/pro-imaging-large-format-printers) or a color laser press (https://www.xerox.com/en-us/digital-printing/digital-presses) which are quite a bit different.

You should always have them send you the icc profile or just send something like PDF/X. And get a proof for God's sake, I've seen big jobs redone because somebody wouldn't pay for a print proof.

[Stephen Marsh]

I always ask for color profiles or preferred print settings but I often get a "just in CMYK" type of answer.

Sadly this is all too common, the people who should know, don't. In many places, prepress has been dumbed down to automated workflows and the day-to-day operators know little to nothing of what is happening under the hood.

Most of the jobs are for digital print

"Digital" can mean anything that isn't an analogue press, however, the printing industry has come to use the term "digital" as a generic description for dry toner from almost any vendor (Konica Minolta, Canon, Xerox, Océ, etc.) or liquid toner (most famous in HP Indigo but also from some other vendors such as Océ or Xeikon). The industry generally uses the term "Wide Format, Large Format, Grand Format" for inkjet printing using aqueous pigment or dye, solvent/eco-solvent, UV, latex/resin inks.

I found about the PRMG_v2.0.1_MR.icc which is found in the ICC site. It is also an extended gamut profile for what I understand meant to be used as a CMYK exchange... Is it advisable to use these when it's digital print a no other specifications are provided?

I just wanna do what i can to provide the best outcome possible.

By @Juanosses

There are no shortcuts, silver bullets or magic answers. If you are not given specific information as to the target CMYK condition, it's all a gamble!

Most "digital print" is set to simulate a common analogue press CMYK condition, such as some flavour of "SWOP" or a flavour of "GRACoL" or some flavour of "ISO" or "Fogra" etc.

If you supply CMYK data in a less common "wider gamut CMYK exchange space", there are two common outcomes:

1) The CMYK values will be converted from your "wider gamut CMYK exchange space" to the narrower gamut simulation profile of a common analogue press CMYK condition, before being converted to the final device CMYK. This is a best-case scenario, your ICC profile is honoured.

2) The CMYK values will be converted from the simulation profile of a common analogue press CMYK condition being assumed instead of your "wider gamut CMYK exchange space", before being converted to the final device CMYK. This is a worst-case scenario, your ICC profile is ignored and another is presumed. Results will likely be desaturated, slightly darker or lighter and/or "muddier" than intended.

There is no standard and it will depend on the print service provider on what the outcome is. If I had to place a bet, it would be on the second outcome. Therefore, I would not use a "wider gamut CMYK exchange space" unless the print service provider was agreeable to such input. If they were agreeable, they might convert from the wider gamut exchange space directly to the digital print device space and you might be able to take advantage of the digital device having a wider gamut than standard analogue press CMYK.

[NB, colourmanagement]

@Lumigraphics "There are no shortcuts, silver bullets or magic answers. If you are not given specific information as to the target CMYK condition, it's all a gamble!"

Absolutely - I liken "pot luck" CMYK conversion to trying to hit a bullseye when you're blindfolded. You might hit the dart board but very rarely the bullseye - it’s a big risk. 

@Juanosses 

Perhaps the only approach that might help in such a situation is to ask the prepress guys what CMYK* they regularly receive that gives reasonable results. Otherwise, it's rather like mailing a letter with a guessed zipcode.

*[its VERY VERY unlikely to bePRMG_v2.0.1_MR.icc , that exchange CMYK ICC you discovered]

If you're US based then MAYBE the majority of the work they receive will be US Web Coated (SWOP) V2 given that’s still the Photoshop default .

[Or for Europe PERHAPS Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004]

If they have little colourmanagement knowledge and you send RGB then US Web Coated (SWOP) V2’s likely to be what they'd use in-house as it’s the Photoshop default. 

I'm afraid one cannot expect great results from people who have no idea about CMYK profiles and how they affect ink recipes "just CMYK" is crazy 

Yeah and ask for a printed proof that they can guarantee to match on press!!!

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management
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[Stephen Marsh]

I found about the PRMG_v2.0.1_MR.icc which is found in the ICC site. It is also an extended gamut profile for what I understand meant to be used as a CMYK exchange.

Is it similar to the PrintWide2020-Idealliance.icc?

By @Juanosses

Here is a simple "top-down view" gamut comparison of the 3 profiles (gamuts are 3D so static views are limited):

[Juanosses]

Thnk you for taking the time for such a thorough answer! @Stephen Marsh 

[Stephen Marsh]

You're welcome @Juanosses 

[NB, colourmanagement]

I agree with others that if it HAS to be CMYK, then you really do need to find out what CMYK profile the print process wants.

US Web Coated (SWOP) v2 is not a large colour space even when considering modern offset printing. For inkjet printing converting your original files to a generic ICC like US Web Coated (SWOP) v2 is really an unnecessary step, potentially compressing colour - when sending into a process that may easily have higher gamut capabilities.

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management