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Participating Frequently
October 31, 2007
Question

Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

  • October 31, 2007
  • 680 replies
  • 62091 views
This problem is getting the best of me.......

After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.

I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).

I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.

The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.

I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?

Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.

Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.

I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated

Thanks,
Pete
    This topic has been closed for replies.

    680 replies

    December 4, 2007
    >And then there is the issue of the image being assigned one thing and ACTUALLY being in a different color space. ... The lack of the correct profile for the image you are looking at is the confusing issue.

    I think we've got that part by now. Lobbying for colour-management in web browsers is a separate issue.

    >Go about your business as usual and swim in it until Adobe gets a clue on how to implement it properly.

    Are you saying there IS a problem with SFW Mike? I'm sorry I don't think your comment was very clear. I've explained as clearly as I can manage, and several times over, why I think that there's nothing wrong with SFW and that there are situations when a colour shift in SFW should not be alarming...and yes, should be ignored. Can you respond in a specific way to things that I have said?
    Participating Frequently
    December 3, 2007

    And then there is the issue of the image being assigned one thing and ACTUALLY being in a different color space - but all we can do is guess at to what the image should look like. Photoshop displays the image accurately based upon a linear working space regardless of your monitor profile. The problem is that your monitor profile is what is in question. Assuming that your working space is what the image is.

    The lack of the correct profile for the image you are looking at is the confusing issue.

    Realistically. This is so screwed up in implementation that it really does not matter.

    Go about your business as usual and swim in it until Adobe gets a clue on how to implement it properly.

    December 3, 2007
    You are misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to predict what an untagged file will look like on color-managed application regardless of the monitor. I am not saying that a wider gamut monitor showing a colour shift in SFW is a necessarily a problem.

    The point I'm trying to make is that a colour shift in SFW may be the result of the difference between sRGB and a monitor's profile, and that does not necessarily mean that the profile is "bad" as I've heard suggested many times. A "bad" profile might be the cause, but not always. For example, if a user chooses Adobe RGB as the profile for an Apple Cinema Display, that is a "bad" profile for that monitor since it cannot display the full gamut of Adobe RGB. A properly calibrated Apple Cinema Display is VERY unlikely to use a profile near Adobe RGB.

    However, wide gamut monitors properly calibrated may use a profile that is quite different from sRGB, and that would result in a significant shift in SFW. I believe this is the case for both Peter and I and our Dell 2407WFP-HC monitors. The answer in this case is not that our profiles are "bad". The answer is that the shift SHOULD be taking place and is not a Photoshop error. It's not a "problem". We should still be converting our web-bound images to sRGB and we should not be alarmed by the colour shift nor by their appearance in our non-colour managed browsers.

    Please inform me if I am mistaken in any specific regard. Thanks.
    Ramón G Castañeda
    Inspiring
    December 3, 2007
    There is absolutely no way of predicting what an untagged file will look like on any non-color-managed application regardless of the monitor.

    If you thing a better monitor with a wider monitor will aggravate the problem, you are wrong.
    December 3, 2007
    Wide gamut is the cat's pyjamas, but that doesn't apply to what's currently being discussed. I'm specifically trying to confirm that an accurately calibrated wide-gamut monitor MAY still display a significant colour shift in SFW as a result of the difference between the monitor's (accurate) profile and sRGB. It's my position that it's not always the result of a "bad" profile.

    If you're interested in commenting, please reread posts #460, #465 and #470 and provide your feedback to those comments. Thanks.
    Inspiring
    December 3, 2007
    Do you understand that a wider gamut is always better?
    Look in a mirror. There you are, in the widest possible gamut.
    Go get a decent reference book and stop this nonsense.
    December 3, 2007
    For example, Photoshop is a colour-managed application. Safari is a colour-managed web browser. Firefox is NOT a colour-managed application. If I am not using correct terminology, please let me know.
    Participating Frequently
    December 3, 2007
    Just to make things perfectly clear and confusing. There is no such thing as a non-color managed app. All applications have to reference a color space. Weather or not you can interact with it and know it is another story.
    Participating Frequently
    December 3, 2007
    >If the image color space has a smaller color gamut then the monitor, there "should be" no perceptual defects between what color space the image is in and what the monitor is showing you.

    When viewing in a colour-managed app. What Raven is asking is whether or not that sRGB image will look the same on a wider-gamut display in a non-colour-managed app. I believe the answer to that would be no. If a sRGB monitor displays a RGB value of 255,0,0 as the most saturated red possible in a non-colour-managed app, then a wider-gamut display would show that same colour value even more saturated in a non-colour-managed app.

    >Thus, an sRGB image viewed on a wide-gamut monitor without colour management will not appear correctly. The wide-gamut monitor may be perfectly calibrated, but if there's no colour management, it will not know the correct way to display the image.

    Yes. All it knows is that there is an image with RGB values and will display it according to whatever gamut the monitor's display profile is capable of.
    Ramón G Castañeda
    Inspiring
    December 3, 2007
    >If the image color space has a smaller color gamut th an the monitor, there "should be" no perceptual defects between what color space the image is in and what the monitor is showing you.

    Precisely (with the minor correction to the noted inconsequential typo).