Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

[_Peter_Mars_]

This problem is getting the best of me.......

After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.

I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).

I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.

The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.

I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?

Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.

Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.

I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated

Thanks,
Pete

[_Craig_Cheatham_]

g-
The grays DID look pretty neutral, though the sample image was pretty small given the resolution of my monitor. The flesh tones looking a little on the cool side was just the opinion of a couple of us here in the studio, more at how We might adjust the flesh tones vs. a scientific assessment of neutrality.

Craig

[_g_ballard_]

Try downloading the 8x10/300ppi print resolution:
http://www.gballard.net/nca.html#getagoodfile

I can look at this PDI file on about any monitor and evaluate it's color pretty quick (from eyeball sense).

It also helps me check a printer...

[_Andree_Caron_]

oh gosh darnit, I still don't "understand" the issue itself.

PLEASE someone explain it, REALLY explain it without getting heated so I can stop fussing over this "issue" and just move on. :)

what I have:
PC Vista, PS CS2, Firefox & Safari, CRT Viewsonic A90f, Pantone Huey
what I can compare with (Hubby's computer)
PC XP, Firefox & Safari, LCD Samsung Syncamaster 930b, Pantone Huey

**on either machine, the shift occurs no matter the white point setting on the hardware or the final profile output. It changes nothing.**

So I can compare between the two and I'm having the red/saturation shift on both computers. I'm working with an sRGB workflow from camera to web.

I've tried reading through your whole site g ballard and sadly although much of it helped understand a bit, I just don't "get" it. Where does issue stem from? IS IT an issue at all?

Another photographer I know only started having this issue recently with her new computer.

Is this "issue" all monitor related? Does it have everything to do with the type of monitor as I've been reading near the end of this exhaustingly long thread?

Can someone summarize in "layman's terms" so that I can finally wrap my head around this? And again, PLEASE, answer completely, it's easy to get worked up and want to will the other person into understanding, it gets frustrating to repeat ones self, but even reading through everything, there's something missing that I'm just not getting.

Thank you!

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

It doesn't get any more clear and in layman's terms than on GB's web site:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/cmstheory.html

[_Andree_Caron_]

***To rule out the monitor profile, go into System Preferences> Displays> Color and set sRGB for the monitor profile, reboot, and retest. ***

THIS is what has confused me from the start and what he's been saying about the "broken profile" YES, it makes sense once your issues are resolved (I JUST resolved them after a month of head banging) but when you're having the problem, this just doesn't make sense.

PLUS, 90% of his instructions are for MAC users, I was just at a loss as to what to do with PC Vista.

For you PC Vista users out there, here's what it comes down to, and how I made it work for me:

1.In VISTA, Control Panel/Color Management.
2.In "Devices" tab, remove your calibrated profile.
3.Click "Add..." and find the file: sRGB IEC6z966-2.1 (also called per it,s "file name: sRGB Color Space Profile.icm) It's important that both those name the same file as you can have created multiple sRGB IEC6z966-2.1 via Adobe gamma saving them with whatever profile name you wanted, etc.
4. Set it as default and make sure to have removed ALL other profiles other than that one. (it could default back to another for whatever reason).
5. Make sure to remove any calibration software from your start-up menu as it could mess everything up at this point. Check "start-up menu" steps at bottom of this post for those steps as well.
6. REBOOT!

***This is where you can test that your sRGB profile is good and that your "monitor RGB" soft proofing in PS works correctly. With now sRGB as your monitor profile, there should be no shift when using Soft proofing or any of the other tests asked to be performed. If there is still an issue, then this won't solve it, sorry.***

7. With "my calibration device, which happens to be the lowly Huey" I had to tell it to reset completely so that it would go back to it's "out of the box" state. So this step depends on what you need to do to get it "back to basics" so you can start your calibration from scratch.

***Now for those reading g ballards website, this is where he said to USE A CLEAN sRGB Profile TO START the calibration process and this is what *I* didn't "get" until today. Doing the above steps infact re-installs a CLEAN sRGB profile.***

8. Calibrate and profile with your device.
9. Everything should be right as rain. Your new monitor Profile should appear in the Color Management Window and you should be dancing on the tables :)

"start-up menu" steps for Vista
For those unaware of where to remove programs from start-up menu (for the Pantone Huey in my case, and I'm adding this as I'm posting this in multiple forums)
1. right click the start button/windows Icon, select OPEN.
2. Click Programs/Start-up, delete the shortcut to your calibration software. If it's not there, then it'll be in...

...1. right click the start button/windows icon, select Open ALL USERS
2. click Programs/Start-up, delete the shortcut to your calibration software.

Also, in either areas, be sure to remove Adobe Gamma, it will mess with things as well.

I hope this was comprehensive enough for ALL levels of PS users, not just those that already "get" it all.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

Andree,

This is the Adobe Photoshop Macintosh forum. The Windoze forum is down the hall.

BTW, it's Mac for Macintosh, not "MAC".

[Guest]

Andree, don't you think your post would benefit Windozers if you posted this in the Windows forum? In fact I encourage you to do this as there are many who need this info that will never see your post because it is in the Mac forum.

[_Andree_Caron_]

well, see I hadn't noticed that little bit of info *said as I turn beat red* yep, I guess it would be better suited to that forum...

um, sorry then, but still, g ballards website had "some" info about PC's and when I gogoled the issues further, this ist he only forum that came right up.

sorry!

um, then I'll post the next issue with this onto the "proper" forum, sorry for the mix-up...

[Guest]

No prob Andree. just tryin' to help those stuck on the dark side. B)

[_Andree_Caron_]

:P

In any event, it doesn't actually work 😞 I forgot that PS has to re-initialize "something" once you re-calibrate. So once I shut PS down and start it up again, the "issue" is there again. I cannot see a fix for this, I'm guessing I'm just not understanding something somewhere.

See, I did strip everything down to my sRGB profile and everything was fine with the soft proofing to Monitor RGB. Re-calibrated, (with PS still open!!) and still fine. Exit and start up PS again, it's there again. I can "see" why it's doing it, but I don't "get" why it's doing it? Make sense?

What I don't understand is how some people don't have this issue and others do. Shouldn't it be something that happens to everyone, if at varying degrees... or is that my answer right there, it DOES happen to everyone, it's just barely noticeable to some and super obvious to others?? does THAT make sense?

Darnit, I was so happy when I thought it worked :(

[_Andree_Caron_]

Oh and I DO want to go to the light 😉 Finances and DH are in the way! lol

[_Andree_Caron_]

Just wanted to say, as I've just finished reading the WHOLE thread, that it was worth every freaking minute. As much as I've screamed at some of you for your lack of "bedside manners", I was willing to be just as offending to the newer posters (myself included!) that didn't take the time to read through this long winded thread to come to terms with the whole issue (and in the end, it's not an issue with anything as it's a miss-understanding of color management and display)

I just wanted to add as a life lesson leanred to "read the whole darned threads before posting" 😉 It's worth the headache :)

Thank you.

[Guest]

glad you learned somthing. Even if it was not what you had intended.

[_Peter_Figen_]

"and in the end, it's not an issue with anything as it's a miss-understanding of color management and display"

Exactly, but a lot of people don't want to admit that they don't understand the "problem" and will look anywhere else for the answer. As soon as you "get it" the problem miraculously disappears.

[_Andree_Caron_]

Eureka then 😄 I'm actually sending LOTS of people to this thread and urging them to read through the whole darned thing 😉 That and a few other threads that seem to have gone through the same steps and inevitably come to the same conclusions :)

Thanks guys and gals :)

[_Ir_]

It's an interesting thread, but not everyone has the nerves of Andee Caron to read it thoroughly.

I too have an UltraSharp Dell 2407WFP and had the same problem. Once I found the "secret setting" of the monitor image mode (via the "hidden buttons" on the monitor front) and switched it from "desktop" to "multimedia", the screen became whiter and the problem disappeared.

[Lundberg02]

What on earth are desktop and multimedia supposed to represent?

If it don't have numbers , it ain't s---.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

> What on earth are desktop and multimedia supposed to represent?

Without further clarification from Dell, I would take the multimedia setting to be what the "movie" [or something like that] setting in LaCie and Mitsubishi CRT monitors do, namely apply an ungodly boost in brightness (luminosity) while removing the ability to calibrate the red, green and blue guns separately and individually.

[_crystal_coffelt_]

I'm trying to solve a profile problem of my own, but I did run across a thread sometime ago mentioning that the save for web in cs3 embeds the color profile srgb. I'm not sure what a difference it makes, but... they said to open save for web and poke around in the settings to turn it off. If I find the thread again, I'll post it. Hope this helps.

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

>I did run across a thread sometime ago mentioning that the save for web in cs3 embeds the color profile srgb.

Not quite right.

SFW can (it's optional) CONVERT a file to sRGB before saving it for the web; but it does NOT embed that, or any other, profile in order to keep the file as small as possible.

To enable the sRGB conversion, you need to check the appropriate box in the SFW dialog.

[_Mike_Ornellas_]

I call that Adobe wisdom.

[_crystal_coffelt_]

Ann Shelbourne - Here's the thread below then, you decide.

[link removed by host]

Quote from link:
"I've recently begun using Photoshop CS3 and noticed that all of my saved 'Save for Web and Devices' jpgs were coming out differently than they looked in my workspace. I always disable colour management as I don't do any print work and I believe the simplest method for web development and design is to work in my monitor's colour working space. This was working fine in CS2 but for some reason my jpgs were looking different when I'd saved them. I discovered a setting in Save for Web and Devices that is on by default and converts the output to the sRGB profile before saving."

[Guest]

Neil Please remove the link. Its that monumentally bad advice again.

Crystal this guy is a complete moron. I have popped in and explained to this guy why this is bad. and he still has it up. Do not follow his advice if you do you will have even worse color. What this guy can't comprehend is, if you use your monitor profile as your color space only you will have correct color. Give that picture to me and I have no reference point and if you have a bad profile it makes the problem worse.

Your monitor profile is for color managed applications to use to display the image correctly within a common workspace. Because everyones monitors are different its the profile that smoothes out the inconsistencies.

[_Peter_Mars_]

Food for thought, if Adobe would add a button to F'otoshop preferences "DO NOT IGNORE MY VERY IMPORTANT sRGB MONITOR PROFILE WHEN PREVIEWING IMAGES". No one would be having these problems. Not all monitors accurately display sRGB images right out of the box. Ignoring the profile that fixes this is idiotic! It's like removing your glasses and assuming everyone sees like you do!

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

Bald headed men fighting over a comb.

No one has any control over what any image on the web will look like to web users.