Printing from Photoshop, Color Handling, RGB Working Space and the Embedded Color Profile

[wildphotog]

Hello, I recently saw a video on printing comparisons using different applications, including Photoshop, and using different color handling settings. The presenter said that when printing from Photoshop make sure that the Working Space under Color Settings matches the embedded profile of the file that is about to be printed. 

I never did this before and perhaps my prints were adversely affected because I sometimes print files from my archive with an embedded Adobe RGB color profile and others with an embedded ProPhoto RGB color profile and I never change the Working Space to match.

I should add that when he said the working space and color profiles should match, he printed a reference image and chose Printer Manages Colors. This was a baseline test to determine if the printer was printing properly.

Next, he printed using Photoshop Manages Colors, but he did not say one way or the other whether the Working Space should match the file’s embedded color profile. Therefore, it’s unclear whether matching is also required/recommended when Photoshop Manages Colors. 

In a nutshell, I'd like to know which situations require the RGB working space to match the embedded color profile. Also, if you've actually done comparisons when the Working Space matched vs. didn't match, I'd be interested how the prints differed.

I tried searching for an answer, but most posts I found are talking about assigning and converting profiles, which is not what I’m trying to do.

Photoshop 25.6.0, macOS 12.7.5, Epson P800 and 3800

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

You'll find a lot of weird videos on the internet... 😉

So to be clear, the embedded color profile does not need to match the working space. In fact, the working space is irrelevant here. The embedded profile will override it. This is how modern color management is intended to work.

This whole idea that the working space is important is a relic from older times when color management wasn't widely implemented. There's even a couple of "warnings" that will pop up by default. These warnings should just be disabled in Color Settings. They tell you nothing useful.

There has to be a working space, but under normal circumstances you won't be using it. It's just a fallback default.

[wildphotog]

That's probably why I never heard of it before, but I'm forever on a learning curve and try not to assume too much. I'm relieved to learn that I have not been inadvertently messing up my prints, at least with respect to this topic.

Thanks for your reply!

[NB, colourmanagement]

@wildphotog I totally agree with @D Fosse "

"You'll find a lot of weird videos on the internet... 😉

So to be clear, the embedded color profile does not need to match the working space. In fact, the working space is irrelevant here. The embedded profile will override it. This is how modern color management is intended to work."

I'd be recommending Photoshop Manages Color over using the printer to manage color, just be sure to select an ICC profile that's for your printer/ the loaded ink-set and media. 

Also in  'Print settings', you'll need to set the media type to match that used when the printer ICC profile was made. If you're using as custom media profile you'll need to ask the profile creator that question, it makes quite a difference to print output which media type is selected there.

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
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[wildphotog]

Thanks for your recommendation. I agree with your process and have been doing this for over a decade with three Epson 3800s and the P800. What I didn't say in my post (mostly to keep it short), was that I normally print from Photoshop with the option to let Photoshop Manage Colors, select the appropriate ICC profile and I select the appropriate media settings in the printer driver. So my reason for posting was to determine whether or when the Photoshop Working Space mattered and also if it might have been the reason I had a case of an unexplainably bad print. 

This bad print occured when I printed a series of eleven reference prints on different papers with my Epson P800 using the method you recommended. All prints with Epson, Canson and MOAB paper were good with one exception. When I printed on Epson Legacy Etching using Epson's standard ICC profile and media type set to Legacy Etching, the print was noticeably faded. I later tried to print the same image again on the same paper, and carefully triple-checked all my settings and made sure I was printing on the correct side of the paper based on how the paper was laid in the plastic bag (printable side up). I figured I must have inadvertently chosen an incorrect setting the first time, but the print came out equally bad as the first one.

So I don't know if I have a bad ICC profile or if there is some other explanation. My prints on Legacy Platine, Baryta and Fibre from the same sample pack all look fabulous! It's not critical since I only have Etching paper in the sample pack, but it would be better to figure out the problem without wasting more ink and paper. Any clues what went wrong? Thanks again!

[NB, colourmanagement]

@wildphotog Yeah, the image's embedded profile is used, the default workingspace doesn't mnatter.

"When I printed on Epson Legacy Etching using Epson's standard ICC profile and media type set to Legacy Etching, the print was noticeably faded. "

does the profile you used definitely relate to that media? - it's named "Legacy Etching"?

strange that. your Canson prints OK but not your Epson media. 

you COULD try "printer manages color" as selecting the media will get an ICC profile in the background (within the print driver).

maybe test that media on the 3880?

"So I don't know if I have a bad ICC profile or if there is some other explanation. My prints on Legacy Platine, Baryta and Fibre from the same sample pack all look fabulous! It's not critical since I only have Etching paper in the sample pack, but it would be better to figure out the problem without wasting more ink and paper. Any clues what went wrong? Thanks again!"

Pleased to help

Maybe try deleting the ICC profile and re-downloading. As it's an Epson profile you'll maybe need to reistall the printer driver to achieve that.

That’s one check you can make, be sure the media setting is correct and you're totally sure you're not putting the media into the printer the wrong side up? (easily done with som,e media)

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
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[wildphotog]

strange that. your Canson prints OK but not your Epson media. 

you COULD try "printer manages color" as selecting the media will get an ICC profile in the background (within the print driver).

Are you familiar with Epson Print Layout? I wonder if the result is equivalent to using the "printer manages color" option since it bypasses Photoshop Manages Colors??? 

maybe test that media on the 3880?

I have the older 3800 and unfortunately there is no ICC profile for the Epson Legacy papers. All prints coming out of the 3800 printer looks great, but I experimented on Legacy Platine using media type Ultrasmooth and it looked pretty good. I could try media type Legacy Fibre with the P800 and/or media type Cold Press on the 3800.  

"So I don't know if I have a bad ICC profile or if there is some other explanation. My prints on Legacy Platine, Baryta and Fibre from the same sample pack all look fabulous! It's not critical since I only have Etching paper in the sample pack, but it would be better to figure out the problem without wasting more ink and paper. Any clues what went wrong? Thanks again!"

Pleased to help

Maybe try deleting the ICC profile and re-downloading. As it's an Epson profile you'll maybe need to reistall the printer driver to achieve that.

If the experiments mentioned above don't work, then that might be the next step. I noticed the current downloaded driver version for the P800 from Epson website is the same version # that I have installed, but the date is newer which doesn't make sense. 

That’s one check you can make, be sure the media setting is correct and you're totally sure you're not putting the media into the printer the wrong side up? (easily done with som,e media)

Here are screen shots of my settings:

I created and used a preset for the media settings and used it for repeatability:

The next time I will record a video screen capture to document the settings during printing.

A reasonable assumption with issues points to user error. I was extra careful to print on the printable side and even put a pencil mark on the backside before the paper was completely removed from the packaging. I suppose I could try printing on the backside of the previous print to eliminate that possibility.

I hope this helps

I appreciate your suggestions to help solve this mystery!

neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
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[D Fosse]

Why is High Speed checked?

[wildphotog]

Good observation! I normally leave it checked for test prints, but you're right that in this case it would have been better to uncheck it since I'm keeping the prints for comparison. However, I don't believe that unchecking that option would have degraded the print that drastically. Have you experienced otherwise?

I went back and verified that my presets for Platine and Fibre had high speed unchecked as these are the only papers that I've recently used for final/non-test prints.  

[NB, colourmanagement]

@wildphotog Lots of folk I work with using Epson machines want to work with high speed checked (it seems to be on in the Epson driver default) - in tests those users have been unable to discern between HS checked or unchecked. Older Epson printers seemed incapable of printing HS (with HS the head prints in both directions) but those days seem to be gone.

Does your experience differ @D Fosse ?

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
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[wildphotog]

I am intrigued by what your contacts have found. I checked both user guides for the Epson P800 and 3800. Both indicated that high speed may result in lower quality.  I have not tested this myself, primarily to ration ink and paper.

Sometimes people (myself included) look more critically at our photos trying to eek out an imperceptible improvement. 😉

However, I may do a comparison in the future when the opportunity presents itself. 

[wildphotog]

To be precise, from the user guides...

P800:

3800:

[NB, colourmanagement]

@wildphotog yeah, the important word there is "may" - I used to advise High Speed off - but many photographers I've worked with have tested with and without high speed and been happy with it activated. Bidirectional printing seems acceptable these days, its up to you of course. 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
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[wildphotog]

It's interesting that Epson had said earlier to "make sure this option is not selected" for the older 3800, but with the later P800, they changed the tune to "may reduce print quality".  Perhaps it was based on findings similar to what your contacts experienced.

For the record, I'm not religious about this setting. I was simply following Epson's recommendation and didn't bother to scrutinize the P800 user guide after having gone through two 3800s. I'm curious why you asked that I had high speed setting turned on since it sounds like your current recommendation is to leave it on anyway. Is this topic debated in the community?

[NB, colourmanagement]

@wildphotog "- - - it sounds like your current recommendation is to leave it on anyway. Is this topic debated in the community?"

My recommendation is to make tests and decide for yourself - I can't say whether your specific printer will show lesser quality with HS checked. 

This subject may be discussed on forums such as Lumninous Landscape, but I'm not sure it's useful to solicit opinions on a matter that’s so easy to test. Your own visual acuity must be part of the equation aswell as your hardware and maybe media comes into it too, I'd expect it would.

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
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