Printing magenta/red with CS5

[DavePinMinn]

OK, I have a bizarre situation, and I'm sure I"m missing something obvious.......

I've been using Photoshop for ages, and my Epson 2200 likewise, for ages. Everything is calibrated and my prints have been good, again for ages...  I converted to Windows 7 Professional last October, recalibrated, everything fine.

In April I upgraded from CS4 to CS5.  Club year was over so I didn't need to print anything for a little while.  Several weeks ago I printed some images and they came out magenta.  I ignored it and got caught up in other stuff.  More recently I needed to print an image I've printed before, and again, it came out quite magenta.......

I KNOW, back in the "old" days, this was an indication that I was managing color in both Photoshop and the printer.  But, by any figuring I can do, I'm ABSOLUTELY not doing the printing any differently than I was in CS4.  I"m setting the color management in Photoshop, and when I get to the printer dialog I'm ABSOLUTELY telling it to use ICM and NO COLOR MANAGEMENT........  I've tried different settings, different images, and different papers,

and things are still magenta.  I've done a nozzle check, which was perfect.  I've even CLEANED the print head, even though things looked fine.  I've rebooted the computer, cycled the printer on and off, said incantations, searched (in vain) for a virgin to sacrifice, and even PRINTED DIRECTLY from Lightroom V3, just to see if that'd many a difference.  I'm out of ideas.......

Does ANYBODY know of something that's bizarrely different in CS5 that'd cause this situation?

I"m about to reinstall CS4, just ot see if I get magenta prints there too, even though I never have before........

[NWphotodev]

Rainier --

That's odd.

Prior to the current issues, we've gotten good color prints (matching as best they can given gamuts) using print preview on the same OS, CS3 & LR2.7 -- all with the funky Epson 2200 print preview ON -- even though it (the preview) displays a magenta cast.

Are you talking about the print itself or the print preview?

Thanks.

- Bonnie

[Guest]

The print.   And the preview, not so much compare to the print.  Printing

was fine until I brought in CS5 products.  But I guess it's worth trying to

print from a computer that I haven't upgraded Adobe on yet just to be sure

it isn't the printer.  I was so terrorized by the prints I didn't think to

try another computer.  Will try to do that today.

And, I forgot to mention that I'm working with Windows XP.  Seems like

everyone with the same problems have Visa and 7.

I really appreciate everyone's input.

Thanks,

Barbara Ann Castelloe

<link removed>

[Rainer 1957]

Hi Bonnie,

I'm talking of the print itself. It only happened when PS managed the colors, not when the printer did it. Turning off the print preview solved the problem for me. However, I'm still using CS3, so it may be a different problem in your case. But you might give it a try.

Rainer

Edit: I just had another look at your screenshot: "Printer manages colors" is activated. So may be we are talking about different things here.

[Guest]

I do use the print preview and haven't tried turning it off yet.

Barbara Ann Castelloe

<link removed>

[Noel Carboni]

When you say " Turning off the print preview solved the problem for me", can you please be more specific?

There is always a preview of the print in the dialog one gets when one chooses File - Print from Photoshop CS3, CS4, or CS5.  I assume this is not the one you're talking about.

-Noel

[NWphotodev]

Rainer (Sorry about the mis-spelling earlier, guess you can tell this is from the Pacific Northwest...) --

Yeah, the screenshot was to illustrate what settings I had used to get a reasonable, though not color managed by PS, print. (Reasonable colors in the print without the magenta cast, but not optimal colors.)

Basically I was relying on the print driver to manage colors, which isn't the color management path I'd prefer to take but seemed the only way to get to a non-magenta casted print.

In the past I've used the Epson driver's print preview, even though it doesn't display properly (the Epson SP2200 print preview has a magenta cast) -- it seems useful in terms of giving a gross idea of whether the print is properly placed on the page or is appearing like other previews.

But typically, I would have PS manage colors choose the profile appropriate to the paper/printer/ink, then for the driver turn off CM & check No color management.

Here it's an across the board magenta tinge -- sadly across CS3 as well as CS5 (plus LR2.7 & LR3) prints.

That's not to say it isn't worth a try...

- Bonnie

[DavePinMinn]

It appears to be a one-way street......  Once you've put CS5 on the box, (or LR3 if that turns out to be the culprit), there's no going back.  Reinstalling an earlier version of Photoshop doesn't get rid of the cast.  I pummelled the laptop with an earlier Photoshop (even though it didn't work on the desktop), AND reinstalled LR 2.7 just for giggles......  No help.  Magenta.  I haven't tried turning off preview...

[Chris Cox]

Reinstalling an earlier version of Photoshop doesn't get rid of the cast.

If that is true (that printing from an older version doesn't get rid of the color cast), then that would be conclusive evidence of a driver issue.

[NWphotodev]

Chris --

Just to clarify, are there any adobe common files that are installed for PS CS5 or LR3 and used cross-product during print?

If we are really looking at the way the Vista/Win7 communicate with the old Epson SP2200 driver as the issue, why would this bugginess appear after the PS CS5/LR3 install only and impact all older app versions as well?

Or is this the result of a recent Windows update that messed with that OS/print driver communication?

Guess I'm puzzled as to why we see this issue proximal to the installs while previously there was no issue with the same OS & prior app versions.

Thanks for the insight.

- Bonnie

[Guest]

Just a note for you guys, I'm still using Widows XP and having the same

problems.  And I did upgrade LR before Photoshop and InDesign.

Barbara Ann Castelloe

<link removed>

[Chris Cox]

Just to clarify, are there any adobe common files that are installed for PS CS5 or LR3 and used cross-product during print?

Nope, each app has entirely different printing code.

[NWphotodev]

Chris --

Is there a parallel inquiry we should be pursuing with Epson or Microsoft for addressing the SP2200 driver or windows Vista/Win7 color management to help isolate/resolve the problem?

Thanks.

- Bonnie

[Chris Cox]

Given that the problem occurs with older versions of Photoshop, it has to be some part of the Windows print system or Epson driver.

But I'm not sure which part.

Yes, talking to Epson might help, and they can talk to Microsoft.

[DavePinMinn]

Ah, yes, the finger pointing begins in earnest.......

I don't know how many of you others that are having problems have been through this before, but from here the progress is pretty predictable.......

1.  Call Epson.  Tell them, "My system worked perfectly with the current print driver on the current O/S.  I installed PS CS5 and now everything prints magenta."  Anyone want to guess what Epson's response will be?

     a.  "Oh, yes, that's our <add your favorite adjectives> print driver.

     b.  "Lessee, it USED to work.  You added an Adobe product and now it doesn't.  WHY are you calling US?"

     c.  "Call Microsoft.  It's their O/S."

2.  Contact Microsoft.  Tell them the same thing you told Epson.  Wait for the laughter to stop.   The answer should be something like "You have a THIRD-PARTY printer with a THIRD-PARTY driver AND THIRD-PARTY software that worked correctly PRIOR TO INSTALLING THE NEW VERSION.  WHY ARE YOU CALLING US?"

Adobe can obfuscate all they want, but the bottom line is there are multiple people in here for whom:

     CS4 worked perfectly WITH their current O/S AND their current print driver(s) AND their current profiles.

     Installed CS5 and we are no longer able to print accurately when using the Epson profiles  and the SAME print driver(s) on the SAME O/S.

[Chris Cox]

Adobe is not trying to obfuscate anything.

I'm trying to direct you to the parties that could actually help you solve your problem.

You've already provided evidence that it CANNOT be caused by code changes in Photoshop CS5 (otherwise older versions would be unaffected).

Only the OS or the driver could be affected like that, and I'm betting it's the driver.

[Rainer 1957]

Noel --

I was talking about the print preview of the printer driver, not the preview of PS.

I just gave it a try with CS5:

WIN XP SP3

Epson Stylus Photo R2400

Photoshop manages Colors

Printer driver:

     No Color management

     Print preview: OFF

---> Print matches monitor colors

WIN XP SP3

Epson Stylus Photo R2400

Photoshop manages Colors

Printer driver:

     No Color management

     Print preview: ON

---> Colors generally ok, but completely washed out. However, colors match the print preview of the printer driver

This is not as bad as it used to be with CS3 where I had the same issue (magenta colors) as Dave and Bonnie if  "Print preview" was ON.

Rainer

[DavePinMinn]

Chris, I had Windows 7 on this box a LONG time before CS5.  It worked perfectly with CS4.  Once CS5 was installed (and LR3 since I didn't do any printing after CS5 and before LR3), things stopped working.  Leaving CS5 on, and reinstalling CS4 didn't help.  The print driver wasn't changed (presuming a Windows 7 update didn't change it).  The profiles weren't changed.  The status monitor wasn't changed.  NOTHING was knowingly done to alter the way the printer functions.  No other products were installed on the box. The only change was installing Adobe products.

[Chris Cox]

The only change was installing Adobe products.

But installing and running CS5 cannot change the behavior of previous versions' printing.

CS4 didn't change it's code when CS5 was installed.

[NWphotodev]

For anyone interested in the 'geeky' end of Windows (Vista or Windows7) communication w/ print drivers...

Though somewhat dated this may be of interest http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/print/xps/color-drv.mspx as it delves into how the information is supposed to flow from the OS to the driver.

Chris --

Is there a path that Adobe typically uses when debugging/addressing issues like this?

I guess what I'm asking is -- does Adobe escalate these things back to Epson & Microsoft itself?  And, as a follow-on question -- has that already been done in this case?

I already have a query in to Epson, but one query doesn't provide much of a tipping point toward resolution.

Thanks.

- Bonnie

p.s.

Even though we'd like to resolve this issue, at this point we're looking at setting up a separate boot partition OS as XP and installing PS CS3 on it for printing then altering our workflow to send only TIFs or JPGs to that setup for print. No internet connection & no updates for that setup to avoid similar downtime in the future. What a shame. It would be nice to print from the new apps and take advantage of some of the new features in them, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards right now.

[Chris Cox]

Yes, we try to escalate things with Epson and Microsoft.

But we can't talk much about it because of NDAs with each company.

In this particular case - we're not seeing the problem ourselves, so we don't have any evidence to present.

It may be that we don't have the exact model/OS combination that you do, or some history of drivers, etc. that triggers the problem.

[debersf]

We are also having printing problems since installation of CS5 and Lightroom 3 with our Epson 4800 printer. Immediately prior to

installation, we printed numerous prints for a show using CS4. Beautiful. After installation, all prints are too dark, magenta, and horrible. Even printing from the same file. Another show coming up! Help!

[NWphotodev]

I've been back & forth with Epson on this issue. Here are the two responses:

Response 1:

Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Stylus Photo 2200.

If the issue does not occur with other software applications or previous Adobe versions of the software, the issue is likely caused by that application rather than the printer or its software. Testing the previous versions of Adobe Photoshop or a different application would be a valid test to try. If this issue persists with different programs, the issue may indeed be with the printer's driver. If the issue no longer persists you should contact your program's vendor for further support.

Should you require further assistance, we recommend contacting technical support for fastest method of troubleshooting. They can step through the procedures quickly to avoid delays and repeated emails.

To speak to one of our technical support specialist, please call our Epson Technical Support departments at (562) 276-7296, and please ensure all of our previous correspondence is contained in your reply, so we can better track the history of this issue.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.

David A

Response 2:
Thank you for contacting Epson regarding your Epson Stylus Photo 2200.

As you had indicated from your previous email, "prior to install of Adobe CS5 XT, LR3 printing worked fine using Adobe app. color management (print driver v. 5.92 with ICM & no color management). Prints AFTER the install show magenta cast for ALL adobe products." We understand that others have reported similar cases, but it also appears that others users in your forum with HP printers and different Epson printer models (not just the SP2200 specifically) are also experiencing the same problem. This clearly indicates that something else may have introduced this problem and some how affected only versions of Adobe software.

Based on your testing (noted in your Forum) clearly shows another reason why the Epson printer driver is not causing the magenta cast.

"Prints w/ known good image & profiles w/ these results:
app CM on, driver CM off -- magenta cast
app CM off, driver CM on -- no cast (but also not what we'd consider "well managed" for color)"

Although CS3 & CS4 users were printing just fine before CS5 was installed, perhaps as you noted, printing from a color management application that isn't using adobe color management might help you provide more evidence to which software vendor is causing the issue. This must be tested with a clean operating system that has never been introduced with Adobe CS5 application. If your issue no longer persists, we can only recommend to contact your program vendor directly to best help you identify the problem.

Thank you again for contacting Epson.

David A

After the initial response, I noted that I had already done the test with other versions of PS & LR with similar results. The suggestion is that the problem lies with the application, not the driver. I'm about to setup an alternate system for printing which fulfills the "clean" OS  that has "never been introduced with Adobe CS5" to get printing again. However if anyone else has already done this "test" -- or has a system that they've not installed CS 5 on that has either an earlier version of PS, LR or prints without using adobe color management -- it would be helpful to report your results here and, if the magenta tinge persists, contact Epson as well to report the issue.

Chris --

You mentioned that Adobe was unable to reproduce the issue.  What happens in cases like that?  Is the issue dropped or is it still on the 'monitoring' list  -- on the developer "radar" so to speak as they resolve other issues?

Thanks,

- Bonnie

[Guest]

I tested my laptop today that hasn't been on the internet in some time and I

haven't loaded any CS5 programs or LR3. Copied a file that wouldn't print

on my working computer onto the laptop, hooked up the Epson R2400 to the

laptop and printed. GUESS WHAT!!! It was a normal print! Bet when I load

LR3 on it the print problem will come with it.

Barbara Ann Castelloe

www.barbaraannsart.com

[Chris Cox]

So something about printing with a newer program changes the driver so that it no longer prints correct even from an older program?

That has to be and OS or driver bug...

[Guest]

Maybe you are correct, but I still think it is something in the Adobe

products that has been overlooked. I just wish it could be fixed. It's

going to be a ton of trouble for me to print. Gonna test another desktop

that doesn't have the upgrades, keep it off the internet, and use it for

printing if the print comes out clean, which means copying files to it.

Fun, fun. There will be no upgrades for it.

Has anyone sent a scan of a print to Adobe so that they can see what we are

getting?

Barbara Ann Castelloe

www.barbaraannsart.com