Printing too dark in CS4

[_doug_plummer_]

I have CS4 on Tiger 10.4.11 on a completely color managed system, Epson 4800 printer. Printing seems to be broken in the new version. Prints are very dark. I know to select "Photoshop Manages Color" in Color Handling, and "No Color Management" in the printer color management dropdown. The procedure works fine in CS3.

That something is up is suggested by this wrinkle. In this case I am printing using advanced b/w. If under color handling I choose "Printer Manages Color" and go into the b/w advanced setup, it's still too dark. If instead I choose "No color management", then make my choices in advanced b/w, it works fine.

One would first think that it's a double color management problem, but I'm turning it off anywhere I can see it in CS4, and still having problems. Is there a new secret handshake I haven't puzzled out yet?

[grayscapes]

Any news on this front? Has Epson released updated drivers?

[Neil_Keller]

Avid,

Have you taken your concern directly to Epson? I'd be curious to know their response.

Neil

[grayscapes]

I just got off the phone with Jim at Epson.  He was not too helpful.  He says that Epson updated its drivers for Mac OS 10.5 and they are done.  He thinks that the problem is with Adobe's software, because it only started happening after the new software was released.  BTW, he says that it started with CS3, though that has not been my experience.

His best answer:  An article from Shutterbug's December 2008 issue by David Brooks (which I can't seem to find yet).  Apparently, you have to change the midpoint on the curves to about 40% and do some test prints and eyeball whether the prints match the monitor.

Frankly this is the most effed up thing I've ever heard.  Why do I have to change my entire workflow because PS, LR and Mac OS were updated?  That should not be the case.  Instead, to be offered half-assed work-arounds for a problem that did not exist before spending money to upgrade to the latest version just tells me Epson does not give a damn.  BTW, Jim helpfully told me that Epson tech support gets a ton of calls on this issue every day.  WTF?

We are getting the run-around here and someone needs to own this problem and get it solved.  I have a ton of money invested in Adobe software, Apple software and hardware, and Epson hardware.  This is a pro-level issue -- we are the top of the market for these providers.  This is ridiculous.

I'd really like to hear that Adobe's engineers are having a conference call with Apple's engineers and Epson's engineers to get this fixed.

grayscapes (fka aviduser)

[grayscapes]

I found a link: http://shutterbug.com/digital_help/0209digitalhelp/

Again, this does not seem like the right solution to this issue.

[Was DYP]

So are you implying that no Epson drivers work correctly with PSCS4 and Lightroom?

I don't believe that is the case? Don't some driver work correctly?

If some Epson drivers work correctly then they know how to make the rest work correctly?

The only experience (what no spell checker now in the new forums) with Epson I have is with the 9600. No the latest driver for the 9600 does not work correctly.

The latest drivers from Canon for the iPF series drivers work correctly.

Have you done the reinstall, make sure it is the default printer (checking CUPS interface), make sure it is registered in ColorSync thing?

[grayscapes]

I am not implying anything.  I have installed all the latest firmware and driver updates from Epson for the Stylus Pro 3800 and I am still experiencing the dark prints problem.  As you can probably tell, I am pretty frustrated with this.

I am curious about this question: "Have you done the reinstall, make sure it is the default printer (checking CUPS interface), make sure it is registered in ColorSync thing?"

I have reinstalled the driver for the SP3800, but I do not know what you are referring to about registering it in ColorSync.  Have I missed something in this long thread?

Thanks.

PS:  I would still love to hear from an Adobe Engineer . . . .

grayscapes

[Was DYP]

>I am curious about this question: "Have you done the reinstall, make sure it is the default printer (checking CUPS interface), make sure it is registered in ColorSync thing?"

CUPS interface is http://127.0.0.1:631/printers The preference pane does not always set the default printer correctly.

In the ColorSync Utility (.../Application/Utilities) does the printer show up in devices? And are the profile registered to the media settings?

If the driver is not truly updated for Leopard you can always use the ColorSync workaround.

As for implying I should have made it more of a point that I was refering to Epson, not you.

[grayscapes]

WasDYP, Thanks for your response.  I hope I did not come across as snarky, as I did not mean to. I merely meant that I was not implying anything--instead, I was outright stating that the driver for the 3800 is not working right with my set up.  Part of my frustration with this issue is that I cannot tell if it is my fault, Adobe's fault, Epson's fault or Apple's fault that it is not working right.

I think I have checked the CUPS interface.  I will do it again.  I will also check the colorsync app to make sure that my SP3800 is listed there.

I assume that Adobe monitors these forums as a way of keeping in touch with their installed base?

Best,

grayscapes

[Joseph_O_Hara]

Well I just fired up my iMAC with OS X 10.5.6 and tried to print using ABW on an Epson 3800: Prints come out too dark. (This is on Epson paper using their profile for it.) After reading this thread, it sounds like (1) it is still an open issue and (2) Epson doesn't think it is their problem. Correct? Are Adobe and Epson still talking to each other about it?

Also, is it true that the "ColorSync utility workaround" can be used to sidestep this issue?

As somebody else on this thread said: This is way more aggravating than wet darkroom printing ever was!

[Was DYP]

In case you might have missed it, here is the post on working with ABW in the Epson driver.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1537407#1537407

I am not sure the CU workaround works with ABW but it might be worth a try. It does certainly work with color.

[Joseph_O_Hara]

I did see that one, and made a note to try it, but in that same post Eric says:

"However, the catch is that -- as noted in this thread -- there is currently a glitch, which we (Adobe + Apple + Epson) are investigating. One of the symptoms of that glitch is that the above suggested workflow does not work on Leopard."

So that makes me think it's not going to work on my setup.

[Chris Cox]

Yeah, Epson still hasn't fix the driver code.  I'm not even entirely sure that their engineers understand the problem...

[Joseph_O_Hara]

That's not too encouraging. It reminds me of the nonsense I have to deal with at work whenever a problem involves more than one vendor. We get them fixed eventually, though. If the driver coding is done in Japan, there could be a language-related communication issue as well.

Has Epson acknowledged that there is a problem?

What is a concise description of what the driver is doing wrong, from a design standpoint, that results in dark prints?

Does Epson know who to contact at Adobe or Apple to discuss it?

Having just spent over $3K so that I could make B/W prints, and now find I can't, I'm happy to help kick chairs over there. The more facts

I can bring to bear, the better chance of getting somebody's attention. Thanks.

[Was DYP]

Having just spent over $3K so that I could make B/W prints, and now find I can't, I'm happy to help kick chairs over there. The more facts

I believe Epson most recent printer drivers work correctly in Leopard and CS4. So if that is the case then they know how to do in correctly. The question is do they want to.

Having just spent for the printer I would return it if they do not want to support the latest software.

For B/W I would try the iPF Canons as their drivers work correctly with Leopard and CS4 and they have a Plugin for printing from PS. And I here tell they print fantastic B/W and never a nozzle clog. And less than 3K too.

[Chris Cox]

Description: in ABW mode, Epson's driver ignores the profile that comes with the image data, and assumes a fixed profile.

Yes, Epson knows who to contact at Apple and Adobe.  Yes, we've talked about it.

But I don't think the engineers responsible have any idea what ICC profiles ARE.

[Joseph_O_Hara]

Chris:

  OK, that's a clue. I will try Eric's ABW profile as suggested by Phil. If that fails, I will try to escalate it with Epson. Thanks.

[Joseph_O_Hara]

As an experiment, I loaded the latest Epson drivers onto my Windows XP laptop. Using the built-in profile for Epson Premium Glossy, I find that with the same printer options set, a B/W file that prints too dark from the Mac prints fine from the IBM. This particular image had the "canvas" resized in PS to create a white border. On the print from the IBM, that border merges with the white border created by the printer driver. On the MAC, the white border that is part of the image prints as what you might call a "zone VIII gray", making quite a contrast with the white of the paper. No wonder prints from the MAC look dark. Maybe this clue will help Epson realize there is a problem.

[Was DYP]

Let me restate this. What is happening with drivers that are not correct for Leopard, when in PSCS4 and LR2 application managed color is selected instead of turning off color management in the driver ColorSync is selected. With some drivers you may not be able to tell this from the driver settings. With Canon drivers (before they were corrected) you could tell if ColorSync was select or No Correction. This is why the ColorSync Utility workaround would work when the same profile that was chosen in PS was pointed point to the (same as chosen in the driver) media in the ColorSync Utility. The principle here is that if it is going to double profile, do it with the same profile both places so that nothing gets changed.

Now how any of this applies to ABW I do not know as I have not tested that. But, this is what is happening with the normal color print stream where drivers are not correct for the print path as chosen by LR and PS in Leopard.

[Was DYP]

Nothing surprises me with this new forum, but at least I can edit it all out, I guess.

Message was edited by: Was DYP

[P_Shock]

Joseph -

Have you made sure the 3800 is the default printer in OSX's print preferences? I believe that is a key.

I'm using a CS4, 10.5.6, and a brand new 3800 and my prints (both color and ABW), are coming out great. I'm printing with Epson's UltraSmooth Fine Art paper using the canned profile for color and the ABW profile from Eric's site. I haven't done a lot of printing yet, but I haven't experienced the "dark print" problem.

-phil

[Joseph_O_Hara]

P_Shock:

   When I look into System Preferences, the printer is shown as "Default, Idle". I would assume that means that it is the default printer, let me know

if that is not correct. Congratulations on the good prints. I will try Eric's ABW profile, thanks.

[Dan_E_Boy]

Found something interesting as far as this goes.. When I upgraded all my lab computers to CS4, that's when the dark printing/ no color management problem started. After a lot of trial and error, I decided to start from scratch, do a clean install of the OS, install CS3, and CS4, and document each step. What I found out was that a print accounting software that we use to charge for prints is the culprit. As soon as I uninstalled this software, all my prints done in CS4 were identical to the ones in CS3. This software activtes as soon as a print job is sent and somehow is interfering with the way CS4 is handling the default printer. Though this dosen't apply to most users here, thought I might share this information.

All computes are G4/G5 PPC Macs running Mac OSX Tiger 10.4.11

Printers are Epson 2400's and 3800's

The print accounting software is called Checkbox by X2 print accounting.

[Was DYP]

There has been a number people mention these issues and what printer was set as default. But I wonder if this is a 10.4.x issue and the 10.5.x issue is something different. I have also noted that sometime setting the default printer in "Printers and Faxes" does not take. In that case one can usually set

the default printer in the CUPS interface. http://127.0.0.1:631/printers

[Dan_E_Boy]

I've tried a 10.5x configuration as well, with the same results. I also tried setting the printer in the CUPS interface but did not work. As soon as I uninstalled Checkbox, everything was fine. I'm going to test out another company's print accounting software and see if will work in CS4.

[Was DYP]

Interesting, when I testing the default printer setting I could not find any relationship. There must be more than one problem causing this.

With the Canon drivers you could tell if the driver was defaulting to No Correction or to ColorSync. At this point the Canon drivers have been fixed. At least for the iPF series. The Canon DPP software still forces the driver to ColorSync though even though PS and LR do not.

It still would be interesting to know what the Adobe engineers found in LR 2.3RC that cause the default to ColorSync but was then fixed in the 2.3 final release.