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PS CS5 10-bit video under Open GL on Mac OS??

New Here ,
Oct 11, 2010 Oct 11, 2010

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Dear Adobe:

I have been working with the engineers at Eizo for the past year in trying to get the Eizo CG 243w monitor to work at 10-bits per color plane via mini displayport to displayport connection while using the 4870 graphics card on a Mac Pro.

Eizo re-wrote the firmware for the CG 243w to be compatible with the mini displayport standard released by Apple. As of this past summer, the CG 243w now interconnects with the 4870 graphics card to the monitor, while hosted on a Mac Pro under 10.6.

BUT in using Adobe's on test image, it is obvious that the display is still not working at 10-bits per color plane, as banding is showing.

Would you please clearly state whether Adobe Photoshop CS5 in the current version is capable of driving the 4870 graphics card and displaying 10-bits per color plane images using the MacPro and current OS? We need to know where the bottleneck is coming from---Adobe, Apple, AMD.

It is frustrating that Windows users have successfully been able to use Photoshop CS5 with a handful of different graphics cards and a large number of Eizo 10-bit monitors for a long time and it still appears that Mac users, known for being graphic intensive, cannot. We really need help getting to the bottom of this. Adobe Labs might be cranking out some fun new product, but functionality of a key issue for Photoshop would seem to be higher priority---and 10-bits per color plane seems like it would be one such issue.

cheers,

Pete

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Adobe
replies 113 Replies 113
Contributor ,
Dec 11, 2010 Dec 11, 2010

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Yes indeed - I mentioned this back on October 23rd in Post #19. The company that is supposed to be the world leader in providing operating systems especially well-configured for the graphics arts and photography community is AT LEAST a year behind the curve in providing support to the latest 10-bit display technologies being made available by Eizo, NEC, HP, etc., etc. Adding insult to injury is Apple Computer's totally intransigent, opaque attitude to providing ANY information about when they will provide this functionality. If it weren't for iTunes and iPhones and iPads, Apple Computer would not have the financial wherewithall to support this kind of arrogance and expect to return profits to their shareholders in the computer business, but they do and they do, so we will have a choice of putting-up and shutting-up until in their own goodness of time they catch-up technologically and make 10-bit display rendtition possible.

But perhaps more important than that for the time being is the basic operational functionality of Apple's mini-DisplayPort technology. The DisplayPort issue is connected to the 10-bit issue because it is only through a DisplayPort connection that 10-bit image rendition is possible if the OS could support it. So we will need this when the company finally wakes-up and provides it. My own experience, and that of numerous others as reported on various forums is that users of both Eizo and NEC displays have experienced connectivity problems because of cable design problems to convert from Apple's beloved mini-DisplayPort as provided on the graphics cards available for the Mac Pro to standard DisplayPort as provided on the displays. In the NEC PA series displays where 10-bit functioanlity is available, pin #20 needs to be left open, but neither Apple nor NEC provide cables supporting this requirement. As a result, we ran into big problems with using our computers. I have pursued both Apple and NEC vigorously to fix this. While Apple has been totally unresponsive and useless on the matter, NEC has diligently researched the problem and determined that three items (two cables and an adapter) are suitable for this purpose. Unfortunately none of them are available at the moment. NEC informs me that within a month or so we should expect them. There are at least two other adapters which users have claimed to be adequate, however I would only install hardware explicitly recommended by either Apple or - in my case - NEC. As Apple has nothing to recommend for solving the problem they created, I shall await availability of NEC's recommended hardware and continue to use the display on DVI to DVI. I won't get 10-bit functionality anyhow for the time being. One could also use the Apple-branded mini-DisplayPort to DVI converter readily availabhle in any Apple store. I use this for the secondary display, not the good NEC display, because the adapter is buggy. Periodically it needs to be unplugged and re-plugged when it starts producing jitters and vertical stripes on the display.

I'm not intending to divert this discussion into a rant about foibles with Apple's display technology, but it is important for readers to understand that these issues are related in respect of producing 10-bit display rendition, and the genisis of these problems has one address with a locked door. Perhaps the more users who apply pressue on Apple by spreading the message widely about how messed-up this is, the sooner they will get their act together and solve it all.

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New Here ,
Dec 12, 2010 Dec 12, 2010

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My apologies if I stray slightly off topic.  I feel for you guys and agree with your expectations that the company that is supposed to be the leader for photo/video pros should be ahead, not behind.

Since a couple of you sound like you are pros I thought I would ask if you have any counterparts working in Windows who are using 10 bit color on their displays.  I've started a separate thead to ask current 10 bit using about their hardware.  Please pass the word along and/or provide your own feedback.  Thanks.

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Contributor ,
Oct 23, 2010 Oct 23, 2010

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I can confirm in no uncertain terms that this problem goes beyond Eizo displays and remains unresolved, and it is not an Adobe problem. The NEC PA271W display DOES NOT work at 10-bit pixel depth on Snow Leopard period. It took me a lot of cajoling to get an Apple Senior Tech rep to admit to me that this is the case. NEC is well aware of it, and they told me as much when I first complained about this, along with the more critical problem that the display would not illuminate AT ALL when connected with an adpter casble I purchased from an Apple reseller here in Toronto. Apple have been on the whole obtuse and uncooperative in responding to any request for information about how and when they intend to resolve this problem of mini-DisplayPort to DisplayPort connectivity, caused largely by their failure to properly test whether their high-end computers can work with high-end displays, of which there are few enough on the market to have made testing the bunch of them entirely feasible. After spending so much monery on this equipment, the display of corporate irresponsibility is infuriating. NEC at least have been responsive. They have posted a notice on their website describing the issues and they are now having that Mionoprice adpater tested at their headquarters in Japan. They kindly sent me one of those adapters because they had heard second-hand that they work, but I shall install it only after either Apple or NEC confirms it is safe to do so, because I do not wish to risk causing electrical damage to the video card, the processors or the display without the full backing of the manufacturers. These firms need to take ownership of and responsibility for this issue. NEC is responding reasonably well, whereas I have yet to see any tangible evidence that Apple really cares about it.

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Participant ,
Jan 03, 2011 Jan 03, 2011

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Any new info on this issue?

Mac Pro 5.1

Mac OS 10.6.5

ATI Radeon HD 5870

Eizo CG234W

NEC PA271W [coming in a few days!]

Ps CS5

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Contributor ,
Jan 03, 2011 Jan 03, 2011

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Nothing from Apple - to my mind just stunning obtuseness and corporate

arrogance.

NEC has tested three cables/adapters that are suitable, but none available just

yet. They should be soon and NEC said they would inform us.

Mark

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Jan 03, 2011 Jan 03, 2011

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No updates.  We're all waiting on Apple to make the changes to their driver code.

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Participant ,
Jan 05, 2011 Jan 05, 2011

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NEC has started to ship a MiniDisplayPort to DisplayPort cable, part# PA-MDP-BNDL.

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Explorer ,
Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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I own a PNY Quadro 4000 and an Eizo 10-bit capable display CG243W. The card is officially capable to output 10 bit per channel under Mac (unlike new ATI cards which are not: ati 5770 and 5870 aren't capable of 10-bit output, only 4870 and the new ATI Firepro cards are...) and has a normal Display Port (no mini version).

No 10-bit output anyway. I have latest drivers installed.

I have a PC with the same display connected with an ATI Firepro v4800 and guess? 10-bit works great!

Why on mac 10 bit isn't possible?

I wrote to PNY about the problem but they didn't answer me yet.

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Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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Why on mac 10 bit isn't possible?

Because Apple has not enabled the driver code necessary to do so.   When we try to create a 10 bit/channel framebuffer, the Apple driver code returns an error.

The card and display may be capable, but the driver plumbing is not yet present.

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Explorer ,
Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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well....why nVidia, PNY and Apple publicize Quadro 4000 for Mac as capable of 10-bit output??? Even in the apple store 10-bit output is publicized!

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Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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Oh, the card *is* capable.    But the OS software is not, so applications can't use that feature of the card.

Yeah, they have a disconnect somewhere.

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New Here ,
Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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Chris, is there any indication that Apple is moving off of top dead center on this issue and actually going to punch through the OS? I take it that Adobe is in high gear on lobbying through its channels? Many of us our counting the moments until 10-bits is enabled

I would hope that Apple would be highly embarrassed that Windows has had 10-bit up and running for more then a year. Too much iPad---iPhone, not enough work on basic issues.

As they say, "caught between the devil and the deep blue sea."

cheers,

Pete Myers
Santa Fe

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Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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We've asked more than a few times.

But frankly, we're spending a lot more lobbying them to fix crashing bugs in the OS code.

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Contributor ,
Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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Trying to communicate with Apple Computer Inc. is like screaming into a void. They don't listen and they don't care. Same for the mini-DisplayPort mess. On this one I'm toying with the idea of hiring a lawyer to sue them for breach of contract. When their tech support doesn't even reply to messages asking them to cooperate on testing for possible defects with the video card they ship with the computer, one is left with little choice. It's a bad scene.

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Explorer ,
Feb 08, 2011 Feb 08, 2011

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True. And It's bad publicizing a product saying:"30-bit color fidelity (10-bits per color) enables billions rather than  millions of color variations for rich, vivid image quality with the  broadest dynamic range" [Taken from description of Quadro 4000 for Mac on PNY site].

Not good.

I spent a lot of money only to have 30-bit output......and now? no 30-bit. Not good at all

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Contributor ,
Feb 09, 2011 Feb 09, 2011

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Max, I think one needs to distinguish between Apple and PNY in all this. Much as I have my issues with Apple, who otherwise make a fine product in so many respects, it's one thing if the misinformation is coming from PNY and another if it is coming from Apple, as it would be unfair to hold the latter accountable for the advertising of the former. But you mentioned several posts up that the Apple store is also advertising billions of colours. That of course is another matter deserving of attention in the monologue with Apple about facing the issue, if correct. I combed through Apple's on-line documentation and I couldn't find a statement supporting 10-bit display capability in OSX. If you can point me to something I may have missed, I would appreciate it.

All that said, one could I think fault them for not explicitly advising potential purchasers of limitations with respect to 10-bit colour rendition, insofar as they are equipping the computers with cards that can do it, but an OS which cannot.

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Explorer ,
Feb 09, 2011 Feb 09, 2011

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In European Apple Store description of Quadro 4000 has changhed and also the price! I notice that this morning! Now not a single word about 10-bit and the price is now 100 Eur less.............. I bought the card 1 week ago............. This is really strange.

But on official nVidia page of Quadro 4000 for Mac, 10-bit bit support on Mac Pro via Display port is still mentioned!!!!

Great Scott!

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Explorer ,
Feb 09, 2011 Feb 09, 2011

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No...I'm wrong! only European nVidia sites mention 30-bit color under Display Features of Quadro 4000 for MAC!

nVidia US site does not!

Oh my!

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New Here ,
Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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Chris, are we any closer to getting this issue resolved? It is critical for us advanced image-makers.Is there any indication that 10.7 will address 10-bit per color plane imaging? Certainly some one must have some insight into this issue!

Pete Myers

Santa Fe

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Contributor ,
Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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I too would love to have an answer to this question, but lots of luck trying to

get anything useful out of Apple on what they intend. Even if they did enable it

in 10.7, we would then encounter the issues of their wretched mini-DisplayPort

technology which doesn't play well, at least with the NEC PA271W.

Mark

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New Here ,
Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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Hi Mark:

It seems amazing that Windows guys have been running 10-bit for a year and a half, and Apple still cant get it together. I have been running on Apple since the Mac II and PS 2. This has been one of the damnest issues I have ever run into with Apple. I think its time for Adobe's senior management to weight in on it with Tim Cook.That is likely the only way past the dead-end.

Pete

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Contributor ,
Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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HI Pete,

Yes I agree fully. Apple has been totally obtuse on this issue, as well as on

the related issues of mini-DisplayPort functionality with high-end 3rd party

displays. High-level pressure looks like the best way forward.

Mark

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Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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Chris, are we any closer to getting this issue resolved?

I don't think so.

As far as I know, we've seen no movement from Apple's driver folks on this.

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New Here ,
Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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Chris, is there anything we can do to get this off of top dead center? Any one at Adobe that can lean on this further?

Pete

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Mar 08, 2011 Mar 08, 2011

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Adobe's already done our part.

We're all waiting on Apple to get their drivers in order.

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