The best monitor for Photoshop CS5

[dwskas]

I am looking to purchase a good monitor and I have  budget constraint.  I don't understand the difference between contrast ratio and dynamic contrast ratio. I know somw will ask what is my budget is and it is about 275.00- 325.00.  Thanks

[D Fosse]

Look at the panel technology. There are basically three types: TN (twisted neumatic), VA (vertical alignment) and IPS (In-plane switching).

IPS is what you want because it has wide viewing angles without any ill side-effects.Unfortunately it's a bit more expensive, mainly because IPS is too slow for gaming and that immediately strips away 90% of the market. The Dell U2410 is very popular and probably the best value currently in the market. A good alternative is the HP 2475W. I hear there's a new Dell model called U2412 which also has an IPS panel but is less expensive.I don't have any details about it.

Stay away from TN panels (which is most of them). The viewing angle is so narrow that you'll see a dark to light gradient from top to bottom of the screen. This is inherent in the technology and doesn't go away with a higher price tag.

VA is much better, but they do show a curious effect known as "black crush", which is a compression of very dark levels when viewed directly on-axis. Move your head a little bit, and the effect goes away.

Edit: If you can afford it, or don't already have one, set aside a small extra sum for a hardware calibrator, about $100 and up. It's about as essential as the monitor itself.

This is probably blowing your budget to pieces, but you will not regret it!

[Noel Carboni]

art by accident wrote:

Stay away from TN panels (which is most of them). The viewing angle is so narrow that you'll see a dark to light gradient from top to bottom of the screen. This is inherent in the technology and doesn't go away with a higher price tag.

I just wanted to confirm this in practice...  A year or so ago I bought a cheeeeeap Hannspree monitor for a server that just sits in the corner of the office, and while it's nice and sharp and seems to have nice color, it's exactly as described above.  Its apparent gamma response changes so significantly just from the change of viewing angle from the top to the bottom of the screen while sitting in front of it that it is utterly useless for judging the brightness/color of anything on the screen.

-Noel

[sisyphos]

The problem is that it is not widely known that this is inherent in the TN technology itself, and the manufacturers usually don't tell. Many quite expensive monitors are based on TN panels.

Before ordering my new work monitor, I did some research, and everything points to the Dell Ultrasharps (U2410, U2711, U3011). I hear nothing but good things.

Here's some good technical background reading:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/panel_technologies.htm

[Noel Carboni]

Thanks for that link, I'll enjoy reading it.  And I'd like to hear your opinion of your new monitor when you get it.

As a point of interest, in another forum I've been discussing font smoothing, and with the new IE9 sub-pixel rendering (that can't be disabled) the debate has gotten heated.  It's become pretty clear that a monitor needs to be in good form to show ClearType enhanced sub-pixel font rendering as intended.  Some people just hate it, claiming it produces nothing but terribly color-fringed, blurry text, while others claim they don't perceive those characteristics and that it actually improves their readability a lot (I fall into this second group).  While there's no doubt some personal preference involved, such an extreme love/hate relationship amongst different individuals implies some of it is because their monitors just aren't doing a very good job.  Even the ClearType Text Tuner can't compensate.  So, assuming the future of Windows text rendering is sub-pixel based using the GPU, it's arguably becoming even more important to choose an optimal monitor and set it up properly - or suffer eye strain of unprecedented levels.

-Noel

[D Fosse]

Noel Carboni wrote:

I'd like to hear your opinion of your new monitor when you get it.

Well, it was a bit of a disappointment. There is a slight color gradient across the screen, from cool (cyan) at one end to warm (red) at the other. Nothing dramatic, but being able to trust even the most delicate adjustments was what I wanted an IPS panel for in the first place. Otherwise, the Dell's performance seems very good, but the color gradient issue killed my initial enthusiasm, and I'll try to get it replaced.

My trusted Eizo with its P-VA panel has its own weaknesses - as Eizos go it's low-end - but it is perfectly even across the entire screen, all the way out to the corners. The comparison is not unjust since they cost about the same.

Anyway, the main reason for updating this thread was that I discovered that there are some quite inexpensive IPS monitors out there. In particular, there seems to be a "new generation" of standard gamut models, one of which is the new Dell U2412, that should be within reach for anyone. Another is the HP ZR24W, and NEC has a 23" called EA232WM. In general, reducing screen size to 22" or 23" will save a lot of money.

Another thing I've discovered is that brand name isn't all that important. The panels themselves come from only a small handful of manufacturers, and IPS panels all come from LG electronics. The Dell U2410 uses the exact same panel as the HP LP2475W, and probably many others.

[Noel Carboni]

Thanks for the information.

That "gradient" is a shame, but it does bring to mind something that possibly could be handled by a hypothetically improved calibration and/or profiling process... 

Outside of additional complexity, there seems to be no reason some part of the system couldn't generate a variable calibration and/or profile, depending on the position of the pixel on the monitor, in order to "flatten" the response and avoid such issues.  Display processing tech has gotten fast enough to do something like that nowadays.  I wonder whether that might be what the Eizo people might be already doing.

-Noel

[D Fosse]

Agreed. It should be possible.

In this case I have a feeling it has to do with the backlight. The U2410 uses CCFLs, and if one of them is slightly off that could explain it. This is probably an accident, so I'm happy to take a replacement unit. But it shouldn't have passed their quality control.

[Noel Carboni]

Very few people in general would notice that.  Admittedly that's a high-end unit, but still most folks are happy when there are no dead pixels.  I wouldn't be surprised if they pass it through refurb and sell it again to someone else.

Making them replace it will send a message back that their QC needs to be strengthened.

-Noel

[Hudechrome]

Actually, it is noticed and controlled by Eizo, who claim to profile this with an 11 point measurement across the panel, where Dell checks far fewer, and will not replace the unit for this feature defect. At one point, they did replace it but now they don't.

There is another player, LaCie, but they are also in the high price range.

[D Fosse]

That could well be. The Eizos are generally much more expensive than the specifications alone would indicate. So is Apple, of course, but unlike Apple you couldn't accuse Eizo of setting any design trends...

Here's an actual photograph of the U2410. As I say it's nothing dramatic, but you can clearly see the left third being more cyan. Noel is probably right that most people wouldn't notice it, but I do. The very slight "vignetting", on the other hand, I can live with.

The Eizo is nothing like this. It's like looking at a solid gray slab.

[Noel Carboni]

Wow, that's a pretty significant color shift.  I also find it interesting, because my (very aged) Dell 2001FPs are becoming more yellow at the left edges.  Could it be that they're anticipating aging of the lights?

I think I'd have problems with vignetting that strong, though.  Is that something that you see change much per your viewing angle, or is it pretty well the same at every angle?

Thanks for posting the photo.  I'm pretty sure the U2410 is now out of contention for me.

Did you consider the U2711, or was that above the budget you were allowed?  And I don't know whether that's an IPS panel, which I know you were looking for.

-Noel

[D Fosse]

Actually the vignetting is exaggerated by the camera. It's there, but it doesn't feel like a big problem. It doesn't shift with the viewing angle.

But the color shift you see is pretty much what it really looks like.

Yes, the U2711 was just out of my budget. I'm the only one doing serious photo editing here, so it's hard to make them see the need. They all manage with laptops, so why shouldn't I? You know the drill.

[Noel Carboni]

art by accident wrote:

You know the drill.

You bet.  It's why I started my own business!  My monitors are starting to show failures beyond just light aging near the top and bottom edges, so I know I'm going to need to replace them soon.

Thanks again for the detailed feedback.  I know you know what you're looking at. 

Given the direction Windows 8 is heading, perhaps I'll need to wait until something good also with touch capability comes out.

-Noel

[D Fosse]

Well, I'll insist on a replacement. We'll see how it goes.

[Hudechrome]

Noel Carboni wrote:

Wow, that's a pretty significant color shift. 

Ditto! There is a reddish spot in the center.

I thought my CRT was getting bad, but I shifted the image around the screen to be sure.

From art....
"The Eizo is nothing like this. It's like looking at a solid gray slab."

...which is why it costs $2100. If it were also pretty, I would wonder about that for which I am paying!

[emil_emil]

art by accident wrote:

...

Another thing I've discovered is that brand name isn't all that important. The panels themselves come from only a small handful of manufacturers, and IPS panels all come from LG electronics. The Dell U2410 uses the exact same panel as the HP LP2475W, and probably many others.

Yes, LG makes all these H-IPS panels that are used by the different brands. The brand (price) difference, among other things also comes from panel quality selection. The expensive brands like Nec and Eizo pick only the best panels, while Dell picks all  and sell those to customers who don't mind and for those who mind they offer replacement.

When I was looking for a monitor I read a lot of complains from that color cast on U2410 and that was one of the reason I chose U2711. AFAIK Dell doesn't provide a feature to calibrate different regions on the monitor differently, I know that certain Nec monitors can do that, however I've also read some Nec users of the 24 inch panel complaining from that color cast too.

[D Fosse]

emil emil wrote:

When I was looking for a monitor I read a lot of complains from that color cast on U2410

So this is actually a known problem? That's incredible. This is not exactly a cheap monitor.

As it stands I'm better off continuing to use the Eizo. And this is not a ColorEdge, it's a FlexScan 23", and the list price is lower than the U2410.

The main problem with it - in fact it's the only problem, but it's pretty important - is what I referred to as the "black crush" of VA panels. What happens is that when you look at it straight on, the darkest grays melt down to pure black, so you lose shadow separation. If you move your head a little, the shadows open up again.

But since the monitor is calibrated, how do I know which one is right? How does the sensor pick up those shadow values? I don't know, and that's the uncertainty I wanted to get rid of by moving to an IPS-based monitor.

[Hudechrome]

My crt monitor also has that crush, and from a practical pov, I rely on the final print to be the controlling factor.

While I would like to see that separation on screen, you can lay money on the fact that the print still may not match the screen. Since deep shadow values work best giving a hint of detail, not the whole story I would not be surprised that after a test print from the image on the Eizo, I still will be tweaking the black clipping point.

The numbers tell the story before anything else. And in any case, I can do a better job with what I have making the print than I ever could in the analog darkroom.

We shall see......

[D Fosse]

I see your point. When making my own prints I usually waste some paper anyway, before I'm happy.

But my concern is that most of my files go to external printers, via design agencies and prepress and whatnot - and sometimes we get bad press runs or awful proofs, highlights come back muddy because of unexpected dot gain on press, shadows look washed out because it turns out they have a new batch of paper, that sort of thing. I really have to know that my files are right when I send them away. If possible.

[D Fosse]

This is getting weird. As emil says, there are tons of complaints over the "U2410 green/pink issue", as it's mostly called, all over the net. There's no doubt it's the same thing I'm seeing.

Here's an arbitrary sample from the Dell forums:

"If you read around the forums, this is not solely a Dell fault.  The panel Dell is using, or a version of it, is in the HP LP2475W and also in a new Phillips monitor which has people complaining about the same colour inconsistency.

I suspect that a very large proportion of these panels (LG Display LM240WU*) have this unevenness of colour, but the users simply do not notice or do not particularly mind"

What worries me is that a number of people have gotten up to 3 replacement units, all exhibiting the same problem!

Fingers crossed.

[emil_emil]

In all fairness, I also read a lot of positive feed back about the 24 panels too, in fact I left with impression that most people are happy so I don't think its all doom and gloom, also assuming that most happy users won't bother to leave feedback the situation may not be that bad.

I wish you luck.

[D Fosse]

Thank you. I know the U2410 is a very popular model, so even if it's only 0,1% of the total production that still translates to a pretty high number, and I think most of them would speak up.

Interestingly, even the Eizo ColorEdge 24" - at four times the price of the U2410 - uses this panel (LM240WU). No complaints there, I bet .

I've no doubt the Dell is a very fine monitor (unless you draw one of the unlucky numbers). Just sloppy tolerances, which I suppose is why they can sell it at the price they do. Oh, well.

[Noel Carboni]

From what I know of you and your color management prowess, I'd say your expectations for monitor color accuracy are likely in the top 0.01% of all PC monitor users.  Possibly that's even an overestimate, since there are now nearly a billion Windows users worldwide.  It may be more like 0.0001%.

As you well know, a grand majority of folks don't understand color-management and believe the best it ever gets is "hit or miss".  You and I debate the finer points, but I doubt most folks take their systems off defaults at all.

Best of luck getting a better copy.  I wonder whether there's any way they'll actually LOOK at the next one they are about to send you before actually sending it - or whether they're likely to just pick up the next box on the shelf...  In any case, don't hesitate to push Dell.  I've had to do so on a number of occasions, and while they may drag their feet or seem incompetent, you can ultimately get what you want from them.

-Noel

[D Fosse]

Indeed, being a perfectionist is hard work .

And yes, Noel, you and I have had a few clashes, and sometimes it did go a little over the top. I sincerely apologize for that, now that things have cooled off a little...I'm not proud of that Lounge thread.

As for the Dell, it's now returned - a shame, because I really loved the feel of it - and I'll probably have to wait a few weeks before the verdict is in. I've no illusions that they'll bother to look at it, so I put my faith in percentages. But the one I got was really unacceptable.