3D in Photoshop 2021 - Adobe Materials Standard? and aligning texures

[gp28199805]

 I've started the process of learning how I can incorpartate 3D models into photo composites in Photoshop 2021.

I've done a good bit of modeling (i.e., making shapes) in ZbrushCORE but have very little experience with coloring/texuring models espsecially in Photoshop.  One of my roadblocks to learning about how to do this is that Photoshop (PS) seems to have switched its approach to materials.  The system that uses base color etc. appears to now follow the PBR roughness metalic system used by Adobe Dimension and Adobe Substance Painter  (https://helpx.adobe.com/dimension/user-guide.html/dimension/using/standard-materials.ug.html).  I say appears because the current  Photoshop User Guide still refers to the old system and Adob tech suport was not able to confirm what materials system is being used by the current version of Photoshop.

I think that in order to successufly use/import materials and textures that were created outside of PS ( for expamle using Adobe Substance Painter or downloaded from a site like https://texturehaven.com) I will need to properly align the various textures (eternal to those in PS).  

Some questions:

Is the 3D materials system used in the current version of PS the same as that used in Adobe Dimension?

Is there a good resource for how to align the output from Substance Painter to Photoshop 3D? 

Are there any good courses, books, tutorials etc. that would show how to use materials in the current version of PS?

Any other guideance on this general topic would be appreciated.

Thanks - George

[jane-e]

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@gp28199805 wrote:

Is there a good resource for how to align the output from Substance Painter to Photoshop 3D? 

Hi George,

You asked this a week ago and it's been sitting unanswered by those who work in 3D. One thing that I can tell you is that the seven Substance forums moved to this community forum just a couple of days ago. Here is the link for Substance Painter:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/substance-3d-painter/bd-p/substance-3d-painter

I will also tag @davescm who may be able to answer your questions about 3D.

For Dimension, I'll tag @Ussnorway 

~ Jane

[davescm · Accepted solution]

Hi George,

Sorry I missed this one when you posted it. I'll try and answer your questions and make a recommendation to you.

1. Yes the materials system now matches the Base-Metal-roughness system used in many other apps including Dimension. However the implementation in Photoshop is somewhat buggy and we have not seen bug fixes in the 3D functions for a long time.

2. Documention on Photoshop 3D is sparce and whilst some still applies unchanged from CS6, it is way out of date. 

3.If you use an external model which is unwrapped then you should be able to use painter and import the model and textures into Photoshop but you may see some differences due to the PS bugs.

If you start by creating the 3D object in Photoshop, make sure your textures are square and your UV unwrapped and applied at 100% zoom. Then you should be able to use Substance Painter export the textures and add the exported textures back to the individual Photoshop texture layers.

4. I'm not aware of any recent or up to date documentation on PS 3D. 

Given that you are starting out, my recommendation would be this. Forget Photoshop 3D, it is suitable only for the most basic work and is buggy, with those bugs not receiving any attention for years.

Use a 3D application for modelling and rendering. It then comes down to how you eant to use it.

Adobe have just launched Stager as part of their new 3D package which integrates with Painter and the models from Adobe 3D assets (which also contains all the Adobe Source material assets). 

Alternatively, if you mainly want to create your own models then I would use a full 3D application for modelling, unwrapping and rendering. There are many around including Blender which is free and very powerful, has very fast GPU based rendering, and works well with Adobe Substance Painter for texturing. I do that, and then use Photoshop for compositing and finishing the renders.

Edit to add - Adobe are also in the early stages of creating a modelling app. There is an option to apply for the private beta. https://www.adobe.com/products/substance3d-modeler.html

Dave

[gp28199805]

Dave,

Thanks for the information. and advise.

Based on your input and some experimenting with Stager I think I will eliminate the Photoshop 3D tools from my workflow.  So basically I will try the approach of doing the 3D work (model creation, texturing, lighting and rendering) outside of Photoshop and then use the rendered image as part of a composite in Photoshop where I will do final color and tone matching and blending.  Photoshop is quite good at working with pixels after all!

Stager will export a layered PSD that has the rendered model (with shadows) as well as some mask layers and a background if used.  I've been looking into useing Marmoset Toolbag 4 for the testuring, lighting and rendering but I don't think I will get the mask layers.

Also, it looks like Stager has more materials features than Dimension.  There are textures, if that is the right word, for sheen, anisotropy etc. that I did not see in the description of the Adobe Material Stadard listed for Dimension.  So maybe some more flexibility.

George

[davescm]

Yes that sounds a good plan. Work with the right tool for each stage of the process and keep Photoshop for the 2D part of the process, at which it excels.

Dave

[Ussnorway · Accepted solution]

Is the 3D materials system used in the current version of PS the same as that used in Adobe Dimension?

By @gp28199805

yes the current Photoshop treatment of maps is the same as used by the last build of Dimension... however models made and saved to CC library [or just local drives] with older builds of Photoshop will not auto adjust to the current system and you have to remove the roughness map \ turn down the slider

Is there a good resource for how to align the output from Substance Painter to Photoshop 3D? 

Are there any good courses, books, tutorials etc. that would show how to use materials in the current version of PS?

By @gp28199805

 no and much of what is around is outdated and wrong

Any other guideance on this general topic would be appreciated.

Thanks - George

By @gp28199805

 its time to move on mate... Adobe + 3D = waist of your time

Dimension is over but the new replacement product [Dimension with a new name] is just started and will need a long time to get up to speed so unles you just want to muck about while you wait or have the $ its time to move on is my advice

[davescm]

If you think about the various stages of 3D production of an image, which is different from a game, these are the tools I use.

1. Modelling and,if required, rigging. You want a full 3D app for this. I use Blender 3D.

2. Unwrapping. There are dedicated apps specifically for this, although again I tend to stick with Blender.

3. Texturing. I use Adobe Substance for this. 3D assets (formerly Substance Source) is a fantastic library and, if I can't find a base material in those assets, I make them in Substance Designer. I then use Substance Painter to build up the materials on the model and export them.

If I need Alphas in the process, for example to use as stencils I make those in Photoshop.

4. Assembling the scene. Again, I use Blender but this is where Adobe's Stager could be used.

5. Rendering. I like Blender for its fast and accurate rendering and the ability to plug in various render engines. So my 'go to' engine for realism is Blender's Cycles. It renders quickly on the GPU and is capable of very realistic results. However when I need glass caustics I turn to Luxcore render. For video I will use the Eevee render engine which is faster if slightly less accurate. But with many frames, that speed counts.

Depending on what I want to do next I will render to single or multipasses with masks.

Adobe's Stager can be used but with less flexibility in terms of choosing render engines.

6. Compositing and finishing. For this I use Photoshop, adjusting with the camera raw filter to get the 'look' I am after. 

Dave

[gp28199805]

Dave,

Many thanks for the helpful info.  When I started learning 3D it was to create models for cutting wood on a CNC machine and for this ZBrushCore works well.  For that I really needed shapes in a file format that I could import into the CNC software to generate G-Code.

For this new adventure, using 3D models for photorealistic composties, I am still at the stage where I don't know what I don't know; so your workflow informtion is quite helpful.  I will probbly start at the end and work my way back.  So start with finsihed models and try to get them to blend into a photo with attention to shadows, lighting, color and tone. Then work back to texturings.  From what I have seen from Dimension the scenes seems to be very starkly lit.  Perhaps Blender or Luxcore will alow for a softer, more atmospheric lighting.  Of course some of this might be acheived in Photoshop.

George

[davescm]

Dimension, Stager and Blender can all handle soft lighting. You can use an HDR image as a surrounding light so that you get realistic lighting onto the objects. Blender also allows you to define any object as a light emitter so that it is easy to add additional shaped lights to get the effect you want (large planes for example act like photographic soft boxes).

Have fun.

Dave

[Ussnorway]

Dimension, Stager and Blender can all handle soft lighting.

Dave

By @davescm

Dimension is finished, at the current time you can not install it on your computer because someone in CC marked it as end of life... that was a mistake i.e, "too soon" but the light at the end of this tunnel is a train guys

Stager is a new build of Dimension renamed with the Substance tools added and not part of the 'all apps' so you have to pay extra to use it and its early days so really Windows users only... in fairness I think this is a great tool when Adobe puts the effort into it that new 3D software needs then it may become the standard

Blender is free\ open and yes it takes effort to learn because it can do so much but its also not going anywhere