How do I export without re-encoding? [PrEl 11]

[MichelleCox]

I've been searching and having no luck finding an answer to this. Maybe I'm just not finding the right terms. Or maybe I'm missing something obvious. LOL! At any rate, hopefully someone can help me out.

I go through my original video files and cut out the bad bits and save individual short clips from that which I then use to build the movies. Years ago, I would use VirtualDub for this because it was fast and easy. But getting it to work with modern DSLR files is more hassle than I feel like doing. So I've been using PrEl for this initial step as well. The problem is, I can't see any way to just export the trimmed clips without re-encoding them. It's not a huge deal as the extra re-encode doesn't seem to cause any visible degredation. Still, though, it would be faster and cleaner to simply export the trimmed clips as is without the re-encoding like I did with VirtualDub. Only I can't figure out how to get PrEl to do so. Anyone know?

Thanks,

Michelle

*Waves at the oldies that were on here when I was back when PrEl first came out*

[Steve Grisetti]

Like virtually all video editors, in Premiere Elements  you are not editing your original video. You are adding your video to a project and then you are outputting your finished, edited piece from that finished project. That virtually always involves re-encoding.

The program can smart-render some formats (like DV-AVI), when your output specs match your project and source footage specs precisely. But this is not likely with your DSLR footage.

On the other hand, there is little need. You will see virtually no reduction in quality from output video, when  your project is properly set up. But, more important, there is no reason your output video should be identical in specs to your source videoe.

Your source video has been optimized for a specific purpose: To provide you with the maximum editable quality within its limited storage area.

Likewise, your output video will be optimized for a specific purpose. What do you plan to do with your finished video? Add it to a DVD or BluRay disc? Post it online? Use it as source footage in another video project? There are output specs that are optimized for each of those uses -- the ideal size-to-quality ratio.

[MichelleCox]

You are adding your video to a project and then you are outputting your finished, edited piece from that finished project.

No, I'm not. I'm simply using PrEl to chop up my source video. I'm not doing any editing beyond that and it's certainly not a finished project. Maybe I'm just asking too much from the program. I'm not a typical user that would be happy with just clicking a button for an automovie. LOL!

What do you plan to do with your finished video?

I plan to replace the original source video with it. I want to pull in the video I recorded, chop it up into usable bits that gets rid of the bad bits, save it, and then delete the original. I would prefer to save it without recompressing because that usually has some quality loss, even if it's very minor, and I hate to introduce that into what will now be my source video. Plus, it would be faster if it wasn't recompressing it.

The program can smart-render some formats (like DV-AVI), when your output specs match your project and source footage specs precisely. But this is not likely with your DSLR footage.

In the past, I've worked wtih DV-AVI source and was able to quickly chop it up in VirtualDub. Now that I'm using DSLR footage, it's in the 'H.264/MPEG-4 AVC' codec. If I'm understanding correctly, this codec does not allow for slicing and re-saving without re-encoding? Or is this just a Premiere Elements limitation? If the latter, then I'll just resume my efforts to get VirtualDub working with the codec. Or possibly move up to something like Premiere Pro? Can the big boys handle this?

Sorry if this is a silly question... I've been in the world of stills for far too long and my video knowledge is rusty. Plus, the world has moved on from my trusty old DV-AVI and I'm not very familiar with these new fangled HD codecs.

Thanks,

Michelle

PS: Nice to see a familiar name. I didn't know if any of the originals were still around after all these years. Funny that I used to be the one answering questions around here and now here I am feeling like a newb. LOL

[John T Smith]

>No, I'm not (doing what Steve said re:project)

Yes you are... putting one video on the timeline and marking in/out points to export (share) a new file is editing a project

Premiere (Elements or Pro) does not alter your original file... the commands you enter in your project (in/out points, etc) simply tell Premiere what to do when you export to a new file... your original file is unchanged

Some learning links

Online User Guide http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premiereelements/using/index.html

-Page to download current PDF http://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-elements.html

Importing Video http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1065281

-and project settings http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1112086

Saving & Sharing http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1137128

-Sharing to DVD or BluRay http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1137645

-Sharing for Movies http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1051093

-Sharing for Computer http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1058237

Steve's Basic Training Tutorials... steps are the same for several versions

-start at http://forums.adobe.com/thread/537685

-and http://tv.adobe.com/search/?q=Premiere+Elements

-be sure to click More Results at the bottom of the "tv" page

-v11 http://www.amazon.com/Muvipix-Guide-Premiere-Elements-version/dp/1479311200/

-All http://www.amazon.com/Tricks-Adobe-Premiere-Elements-Muvipix-com/dp/1451529724/

-and http://forums.adobe.com/thread/498626

-and http://prodesigntools.com/four-hours-free-video-tutorials-new-photoshop-elements-9-pse9.html

-and http://prodesigntools.com/five-hours-free-tutorials-photoshop-and-premiere-elements-7-and-8.html

FAQ http://forums.adobe.com/community/premiere_elements/premiere_elements_faq

TIPS http://forums.adobe.com/community/premiere_elements/premiere_elements_tips

Another help site http://muvipix.com/ or http://muvipix.com/phpBB3/

[MichelleCox]

I understand how non destructive editing works. I may be new to the HD codec but I've been using PrEl since the first version so I'm not a newb so please don't form-letter me. I simply have never used PrEl for this phase of editing before and wanted to simplify my workflow by using one tool and also not fight with VirtualDub to use this new codec. 

My response to him was saying that I am not "outputting your finished, edited piece from that finished project". What I am doing is a rough cut of my footage. If I were going directly from source to finished project, I wouldn't be worried about the re-encoding because that would be the final form. Because I am cutting and replacing my source, that extra re-encoding is degrading, however slightly, what will now be my original source video.

Since Steve tipped me off that my problems likely stem from the way software handles the HD codec vs the old DV one, I've been doing more research. Looks like this is a tougher problem than I thought and that Premiere Elements is not the right tool for the job. I've found various other programs that will do what I want and now just need to figure out what is the best bang for the buck. Kind of sucks having to buy something else for this but I suppose the target audience of PrEl doesn't worry about cleaning up their souce files and so it's likely not a priority for Adobe to add this in.

[Steve Grisetti]

Again, unless you're planning to actually put the finished footage back into your camcorder for some reason, there's no reason to get back exactly what you put in. And what you get back depends on how you're going to use it. So it's unlikely that any of the major video editing software producers (Adobe, Apple, Sony, Avid, etc.) will be changing the way they work.

But if you've found an app that will do what you need, that's all that matters!

[MichelleCox]

Again, unless you're planning to actually put the finished footage back into your camcorder for some reason, there's no reason to get back exactly what you put in.

Well, the reason is that re-encoding isn't lossless. That means I'm throwing away data. Yes, it's very slight and, in practice I likely won't ever notice. Still, though, I would prefer to have a lossless (aside from the compression already done by the camera itself) version as my master source copy.

Maybe I'm just being overly picky... Given that I'm not keen on the free programs I've found, I guess I have to decide if this is worth 50ish bucks to me. Times have changed in my absence. I feel like a filmy suddenly thrust into a digital photography world. In the old days, keeping a re-compressed file and throwing away the original was stupid. But, then, quality was worse and compression algorithms were worse. Maybe one extra H2.64 encoding doesn't do enough damage to worry about?

[the_wine_snob]

Michelle,

When I need to Export/Share to a Digital Intermediate file (DI's), I use Lagarith Lossless, or UT Lossless.

Now, those files are compressed, but are visually lossless - however, their compression is not great, so the file sizes ARE large. This article goes into more detail: http://forums.adobe.com/message/3791571#3791571

Now, that DOES require time to output (in my case, I am doing more editing, that it sounds like you are), so if you have a workflow, that will use Smart Transcoding, with the results that you desire, your way will likely save you time.

Good luck,

Hunt

[MichelleCox]

Thank you. That post is exactly what I've been trying to explain.

I need to do some experimenting to see just how large is "large". If my trimmed files end up being larger than my untrimmed then I'm not gaining much. My goal is to save space by cutting the cruft. The number of terrabytes of data I am trying to both store and have redundant backups of is a bit nutty.

FWIW, those other programs I've been investigating don't result in a lossless file but the key is that they don't re-compress them. They are able to edit and save the new clips out of the source file without re-doing the compression. So you still have the same compression originally done by the camera but less cruft. To me, that is ideal, but I would really love to do this in PrEl and save having a different program for my pre-processing. If your uncompressed option isn't insanely huge, that may be a route for me. I'll do some testing to see.

Thanks!

Michelle

[the_wine_snob]

Michelle,

I understand, and that is why I mentioned the files sizes.

For me, I am often Trimming out material, that I know I will not use, to basically keep my Project, as clean, as is possible, or to round-trip my DI's from Premiere to another program, knowing that it will come back to Premiere for finishing.

As I have tons of HDD space, the file sizes are not a big deal for me, but on others' systems, I can well imagine that they would be. Test a few of your files, to see if you can live with the file sizes. If not, that does present a problem.

Good luck, and just wanted to throw out a possibility, that might, or might not work for you.

Hunt

[MichelleCox]

I understand, and that is why I mentioned the files sizes.

Yeah, that's always going to be an issue with uncompressed. I appreciate you throwing out the possibility, though. It gives me another option to weigh.

[nealeh]

MichelleCox wrote:

I've found various other programs that will do what I want

Which ones are they?

Cheers,
--
Neale
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

[MichelleCox]

The blog post I linked to has a bunch and I'm also evaluating http://www.solveigmm.com/en/products/video-splitter/ . That one is quite good except it seems to be buggy.

Edit: To clarify, it's "quite good" as far as speed and ease of use. But it hung up on me when saving the second clip I tried which isn't a good sign. I'm waiting to hear back from the company about that. Of all the ones I've looked at, this seems to be the best aside from that one serious saving issue.

[nealeh]

It might be worth looking at the software that came with your camera. In researching your question I've discovered that the software provided with my Sony Cybershot includes a video trim feature that trims clips without re-encoding. I've tested it on a Full HD clip and it worked fine (and fast).

Cheers,
--
Neale
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

[MichelleCox]

It might be worth looking at the software that came with your camera.

I can take a look but I'd be very surprised if if has anything. DSLRs are still more about still than video and I suspect the software is as well. Thanks for the suggestion, though. You never know.

[Bill Sprague]

This thread is two days old, which makes it almost dead!

On a camcorder forum where the regulars are intent on lossless editing, there seems to be only three common solutions.

Sony provides PlayMemories Home with (most?) of their video capable cameras and camcorders.

Panasonic provides HDWriter with their camcorders.

A relative newbie in the NLE market is http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tmsr4.html that seems to be very rare in the NLE world for it's goal of "smart rendering".  A recent example, and pleasant glimpse into China, can be watched here:  https://vimeo.com/69798481  The camera used was a Pansonic ZS30 - a pocket sized point and shoot!

"Smart Rendering" limits a lot of features I enjoy in Premier Elements 11.  However, smart rendering may have a place in certain situations.

Bill

[nealeh]

whsprague wrote:

Sony provides PlayMemories Home with (most?) of their video capable cameras and camcorders.

Yes that's what I installed when researching Michelles question. Very cleverly it didn't matter that I no longer had the original supplied software installed. So long as the camera was connected, the latest version installs without problem and then updates itself for camera specific features! It's quite a nifty media organizer as well (although I'll be sticking with Elements Organizer).

[EDIT] Once installed you don't need the camera connected to use it's features. So you if you know someone with a Sony camera you can borrow for a while ....

Cheers,
--
Neale
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children.

[Bill Sprague]

nealeh wrote:

whsprague wrote:

Sony provides PlayMemories Home with (most?) of their video capable cameras and camcorders.

......... It's quite a nifty media organizer as well (although I'll be sticking with Elements Organizer).

It has a couple unique features PrE does not have.  Besides lossless editing, it can export media back to your camera so that, with the right cord, the camera can be a media player for any TV.  Pansonic's software is similar.   Third, they both will generally run well on weaker PCs that struggle with PrE.

My pattern is to use the camera specific software for the first transfer of all my photo and vidoe files to my computer.  Then I put them in Lightroom from the computer HDD. (Yes, video too.)  It adds a step, but I like having the benefit of the few unique features, especially the very fast lossless editing in the camera provided edtiors. 

Bill

[MichelleCox]

Looking back... That was harsher than it should have been. Getting handed a stock response that doesn't address my issue is a major pet peeve of mine and I'm afraid it set me off a bit. I realize you are just trying to help and I apologize for my tone.

Edit: The threading on this new forum is hard to follow. This is a reply to my own post in #5.

[Steve Grisetti]

No stock response given, Michelle. And no apology necessary.

You asked about Premiere Elements and we told you about Premiere Elements. And the reason it and pretty much every other video editor does what it does.

But if you've found what you need, that's all that matters.

[MichelleCox]

No stock response given, Michelle. And no apology necessary.

I was referring to John's, which looks like he just copied and pasted an existing list. If he actually went and found all those links and organized it like that just for my post then I definitely apologize.

You asked about Premiere Elements and we told you about Premiere Elements. And the reason it and pretty much every other video editor does what it does.

That's fine. The answer to my question is, essentially, "Not possible". And that's a perfectly acceptable answer. I just didn't realize because I don't normally use PrEl for preprocessing.

[jazamm]

OH for chrissbygodsakes here, there are a MILLION reasons one might wish to chop up a longer clip into a bunch of smaller clips with no recompression. For the love of all, why is this thread so difficult. HOW DO WE CHOP UP OUR .MP4 INTO SMALLER CLIPS AND SIMPLY RE-WRAP SAVE AS SHORTER, IDENTICAL QUALITY .MP4s WITHOUT RE-ENCODING???

Apple QuickTime does this lickety split, for most codecs. But I've already got markers and subclips set up in my Premiere project since I'd assumed Pr.Pro could do the same. But I'm not seeing it. CAN PREMIERE PRO DO THIS OR NOT?? It's a simple "yes, here's how," or "no, it can't."

I have a long H.264 .MP4 beautifully rendered at 500kps bitrate, which I need to break into smaller videos. I made markers and cuts at all the needed timestamps, then made into subclips. I should now be able to simply save those subclips as new files with trimmed/discarded frames without re-encoding. However, every time I try to export from Pr.Pro, to maintain visual quality, I have to up the bitrate for larger filesizes than my source file (unacceptable), or deal with chewed text bc of re-encoding an already lossy-compressed file (also unacceptable).

So currently I'm stuck with using QuickTime and re-trimming at new timestamps manually, instead of simply being able to save out my current marked/cut subclips into discrete files, simply re-wrapped with no compression, like any competent software should easily be able to do.  WHAT. THE. F.

Having to redo all my work in QuickTime is a huge waste of life. ADOBE: If QuickTime can do it 1-2-3, why can't you??? If QT had the same timestamping/marking/cutting tools, I'd never open Premiere again.

[John T Smith]

>I've been using PrEl since the first version

Well, you didn't SAY that before I posted my reply, so I gave information that I didn't know you didn't need

What you did say made it SEEM like you didn't understand Premiere Elements editing very well... since you do, I'll bow out of the discussion

[MichelleCox]

Well, you didn't SAY that before I posted my reply, so I gave information that I didn't know you didn't need

Actually, I did say I was here at the begining, though that was an aside at the bottom of the post so I can understand if you missed it. Pity my posting history seems to have gotten wiped out with the new forum.

What you did say made it SEEM like you didn't understand Premiere Elements editing very well

I'm curious how so? Do you get a lot of newbs that don't understand what non destructive editing is who are familiar with VirtualDub and concerned about lossy recompression? I'm not trying to be an ass here... I just honestly don't see how my original question is answered by links to basic tutorials. Especially since the answer to my question is that PrEl isn't able to do what I want to do.

I suspect you just gave my post a quick glance and thought I was a newb and tossed some links at me. Keeping up with answering questions in a forum is hard. I've been there. It's understandable to try and whip through the easy ones fast. That's why I apologized. It's a pet peeve when people answer without taking the time to understand what I'm asking but that's no excuse to get nasty with someone trying to help. I should have simply said I already know the basics, thanked you for trying, and left it at that.

[MichelleCox]

Just found this blog that explains quite a bit: http://www.saraproft.net/blog/?p=3184