P: Max Render Quality - not functioning

[Brice5C88]

Exports run as normal with Max Render Quality selected, but it has no decernable affect on quality of output. Primary use case is exporting UHD sequences at HD. The sequences contain some assets that are upscaled in motion settings on the timeline and then subsequently downscaled as part of the export. Previously using Max Render Quality has functioned similar to AE's continous rasterization and subsequently exports of upscaled-then-downscaled source material show no quality loss compared with the original source file. However, in the current version there is a noticable quality drop as if Max Render Quality has not been checked.

Premiere Pro Version 23.5.0 (Build 56)

Media Encoder Version 23.5.0 (Build 51)

MacOS Monterey Version 12.4

Mac Pro (2019)
Processor 3.2 GHz 16-Core Intel Xeon W
Memory 192 GB 2933 MHz DDR4
Startup Disk Macintosh HD
Graphics AMD Radeon Pro Vega Il 32 GB

[Lin23731620badm]

In this version（v23.4）, the ae dynamic link was used in my timeline, the resolution of the sequence was 4K, but when I tried to export to 1080 HD and checked use high quality render, after rendering was completed, I played the video and found that the quality of the ae part was half the quality, which is equivalent to not checking use high quality render.

[RC 27 02 Black]

Same for me. The quality gets even worse when the export resolution is lower, like 540p.
So whenever there's for example a 1080p clip in my UHD timeline and I need to export a small preview version for a client, it looks like it's recorded with a Nokia phone 20 years ago.
This happens on multiple M1 Macs (M1, M1 Max, M1 Ultra) with Rosetta activated and deactivated, with hardware encoding as well as with software encoding.

[Marvin31403616v2vc]

Same here, using 1080p graphics in a 4K sequence and then exporting in 1080p results in blurry graphics.

Previously "Use Maximum Render Quality" fixed it, but now it doesn't anymore.

[Brice5C88]

Yep can confirm, same for me. As I understood it, that checkbox previously functioned the same as "continuous rasterization" in AE - where essentially all the transform math is pre-calculated and only rasterized once at the end.

For example if you have scaled up a HD clip or graphic to fill a UHD sequence and then exported that at HD the tranforms cancel each other out.

With max render quality, you get:

200% scale * 50% scale = 100% > Rasterize at 100%

Without use max render quality you get:

200% scale > Rasterize scaled-up * 50% scale > Re-rasterize to shirink scaled-up image = Potato-vision quality

As far as I can tell this is a bug in the latest release meaning max render quality is not functioning as normal. I really hope this isn't a design choice to remove the function, as I'm sure–like many–our production company relies on this as part of our UHD workflow.

[Brice5C88]

Update - I've created a bug report. Please do go and upvote it if you're expieriencing the same!

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-bugs/max-render-quality-not-functioning/idi-p/13978960#M...

[R Neil Haugen]

Perhaps there's an issue on the scaling type used in the sequence?

As, if "scale to framesize" is set as a Preference or was used, this would be the expected result no matter whether that export option was checked or not.

As "scale to framesize" does rasterize (I think that's the term ... ) the image at the sequence framsize. And all future scaling is done from that framesize, not the original pixels of the image.

So a 3840x2160 image becomes 1920x1080 image when using "scale to framesize" ... permanently.

And if you then upscale, you are doing so from the downscaled 1920x1080 pixels, not the original 3840x2160 image.

But if "set to framesize" has been used, the image is still 3840x2160, just displayed smaller on the sequence. And any upscaling or export computations are done from the original full-size 3840x2160 image.

Neil

[scrozier]

I've never seen upscale then downscale not have some noticeable drop in quality within PremierePro, but it would be a nice feature to have! Which version of Premiere last had that feature? 

Jarle did a deep dive on all these checkboxes awhile back and doesn't mention continous rasterization being one of the features : https://blog.frame.io/2021/06/07/premiere-pro-max-render-quality-max-bit-depth/

[R Neil Haugen]

"Scale to framesize" and "Set to framesize" have both been there for many years.

"Scale to ... " was created back when many computers had trouble with scaling on the fly, and as then the image is "created" internally at the sequence framesize, there's no further computations needed. Faster playback on minimalist machines.

But there's a cost ... that is the framesize that will be used for all further computations of scale for that image on that sequence. Use "Scale to-", on a UHD image to 1920x1080, you now have a 1920x1080 image on that sequence. Decide to "zoom" in a bit more, you are now enlarging that 1920x1080 image. And yes, that is very noticeable.

"Set to framesize" merely takes the image, rescales for fitting it to the current sequence display, but doesn't change the computational work at all. So during playback, the computer has to take the say UHD image and on the fly rescale to HD. So with "Set to-", you still have a 3840x2160 pixel image, just displayed within that 1920x1080 sequence. Decide to zoom in a bit, that 'enlargement' is done from the 38140x2160 original image, not the sequence image.

Max Render Q is a separate computation, and has never (to my knowledge) been part of the set-to/scale-to computations.

And yes, Jarle has done MARVELOUS work on checking out when Max Render Q is needed!

Neil

[Brice5C88]

Interesting, thanks for the clear defining of the different between those to scale options - I've never fully understood it before.

In anycase I have a tendacy to manually set the scale in the motion/transform settings. Up until very recently Max Render Q has always negated any additional raterization steps so there is no quality degregation caused by scaling and export settings cancelling out transforms. I'm not the only one to have used this feature or the first one to have spotted it missing, as discussed here: https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-bugs/premiere-pro-v23-4-use-maximum-render-quality-does-...

For the last 4 years our production company has workflowed all edits and graphics at UHD (although not using dynamic link liek the OP in the thread above) - but delivered mostly HD exports up until the final master output, so it's a feature we rely upon.

[Brice5C88]

So the work around for this is to roll back Media Encoder to version 23.2 and use dynamic link to export premiere through ME.

[moervx]

It was definetely one of it's features, even if unintentional.

A lot of our graphics are produced in 1080p for broadcast use and we master two versions, one for social and one for broadcast. Often our footage is 4k so if the editor uses a 4k timeline, the 1080p graphical assets will look fine in the preview window but poorly scaled in the export.

We even went as far and implemented our export extension to automatically enable "Use Max Render Quality" on all present sequences before exporting.

[moervx]

I did a sanity check and created two identical sequences in Premiere 22 and 23.
Sequence Resolution: 3840x2160

Source Image Resolution 1920x1080
Scaling Method: Set to Frame Size

Export Resolution: 1920x1080

The only variable in this test was "Use Maximum Render Quality". For the cases where it was enabled, it was set in the sequence as well as in the export window.

Results:
The Image was always sharp in the program preview.

The only export that was sharp was the export from Premiere 22 with Maximum Render Quality enabled.

Test Files here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11u2D_6vp5KQ44dUDoGU8m5ZfiMXT6JTR

[Brice5C88]

I'm glad I haven't imagined this feature for the last 7 years! Thanks for the test

[R Neil Haugen]

The change in MAX Render Q that Jarle posted details about was a year or two back.

And that is an *export* issue,  certainly.

His testing showed MRQ should be used on both the sequence settings and all exports if any size changes existed on that sequence.

Including any use of Warp, btw.

[Kolja32358147ryxe]

@Brice5C88 That didn't help on my editing station. 😞

[chrisw49527043]

Is there still no workaround for this? As others have said, it absolutely ruins the quality of footage that is made in a higher resolution and then needs to be exported at a lower resolution. I used to do this all the time and tickingthe max render quality option fixed it, but now does absolutely nothing.

I'm on version 23.6

[Brice5C88]

None to my knowlege. The work around I was using (rendering through a backdated copy of Media Encoder) is no longer working.

I've taken to exporting everything at UHD (our default sequence size) with bitrate dropped to VBR target 5 max 15. It's poor but better than HD with the potato scaling.

[R Neil Haugen]

Are you setting both the Sequence Preview setting MaxR and export MaxR?

[Brice5C88]

Yep.

[Brice5C88]

And here's the source (left) and render (right) of a HD clip on a UHD timline.

 

    

[Juan Ignacio32350602hs8p]

I've founded a temporal solution. Nest the whole in-to-out segment you're trying to export, and then export using the "maximum-render-quality". It works for me that way. I'm pretty sure this is a Premiere bug, it used to work as it should until this 23 version. Greets from Argentina.

[moervx]

Bumping, as it's still a big issue in our workflow.

[Wes Howell]

From an engineering perspective, the most useful thing would be a small test project that reproduces the failure along with info on what prior release produced superior results.  Exports showing the difference between releases would be great.  Often times, the devil can be in the details so getting to a clarified simple repro case would be the clearest way to get any potential bug logged and prioritized.

[Brice5C88]

@Wes Howell I would love to but the last un-affected version of Premiere/Media Encoder was the 22 release, which is no longer availble for download and I don't have a copy of on any of our edit machines. As an Adobe Employee do you have access to a working older release?

I'm very keen to get this fixed and happy to help any way I can.

[Wes Howell]

I could probably track down an older version 🙂

Do you have a sample project that shows clear results that you can share?  I will send you a PM