Max Render Quality - not functioning

[Brice5C88]

Exports run as normal with Max Render Quality selected, but it has no decernable affect on quality of output. Primary use case is exporting UHD sequences at HD. The sequences contain some assets that are upscaled in motion settings on the timeline and then subsequently downscaled as part of the export. Previously using Max Render Quality has functioned similar to AE's continous rasterization and subsequently exports of upscaled-then-downscaled source material show no quality loss compared with the original source file. However, in the current version there is a noticable quality drop as if Max Render Quality has not been checked.

Premiere Pro Version 23.5.0 (Build 56)

Media Encoder Version 23.5.0 (Build 51)

MacOS Monterey Version 12.4

Mac Pro (2019)
Processor 3.2 GHz 16-Core Intel Xeon W
Memory 192 GB 2933 MHz DDR4
Startup Disk Macintosh HD
Graphics AMD Radeon Pro Vega Il 32 GB

[R Neil Haugen]

Perhaps there's an issue on the scaling type used in the sequence?

As, if "scale to framesize" is set as a Preference or was used, this would be the expected result no matter whether that export option was checked or not.

As "scale to framesize" does rasterize (I think that's the term ... ) the image at the sequence framsize. And all future scaling is done from that framesize, not the original pixels of the image.

So a 3840x2160 image becomes 1920x1080 image when using "scale to framesize" ... permanently.

And if you then upscale, you are doing so from the downscaled 1920x1080 pixels, not the original 3840x2160 image.

But if "set to framesize" has been used, the image is still 3840x2160, just displayed smaller on the sequence. And any upscaling or export computations are done from the original full-size 3840x2160 image.

Neil

[scrozier]

I've never seen upscale then downscale not have some noticeable drop in quality within PremierePro, but it would be a nice feature to have! Which version of Premiere last had that feature? 

Jarle did a deep dive on all these checkboxes awhile back and doesn't mention continous rasterization being one of the features : https://blog.frame.io/2021/06/07/premiere-pro-max-render-quality-max-bit-depth/

[R Neil Haugen]

"Scale to framesize" and "Set to framesize" have both been there for many years.

"Scale to ... " was created back when many computers had trouble with scaling on the fly, and as then the image is "created" internally at the sequence framesize, there's no further computations needed. Faster playback on minimalist machines.

But there's a cost ... that is the framesize that will be used for all further computations of scale for that image on that sequence. Use "Scale to-", on a UHD image to 1920x1080, you now have a 1920x1080 image on that sequence. Decide to "zoom" in a bit more, you are now enlarging that 1920x1080 image. And yes, that is very noticeable.

"Set to framesize" merely takes the image, rescales for fitting it to the current sequence display, but doesn't change the computational work at all. So during playback, the computer has to take the say UHD image and on the fly rescale to HD. So with "Set to-", you still have a 3840x2160 pixel image, just displayed within that 1920x1080 sequence. Decide to zoom in a bit, that 'enlargement' is done from the 38140x2160 original image, not the sequence image.

Max Render Q is a separate computation, and has never (to my knowledge) been part of the set-to/scale-to computations.

And yes, Jarle has done MARVELOUS work on checking out when Max Render Q is needed!

Neil

[Brice5C88]

Interesting, thanks for the clear defining of the different between those to scale options - I've never fully understood it before.

In anycase I have a tendacy to manually set the scale in the motion/transform settings. Up until very recently Max Render Q has always negated any additional raterization steps so there is no quality degregation caused by scaling and export settings cancelling out transforms. I'm not the only one to have used this feature or the first one to have spotted it missing, as discussed here: https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-bugs/premiere-pro-v23-4-use-maximum-render-quality-does-...

For the last 4 years our production company has workflowed all edits and graphics at UHD (although not using dynamic link liek the OP in the thread above) - but delivered mostly HD exports up until the final master output, so it's a feature we rely upon.

[moervx]

It was definetely one of it's features, even if unintentional.

A lot of our graphics are produced in 1080p for broadcast use and we master two versions, one for social and one for broadcast. Often our footage is 4k so if the editor uses a 4k timeline, the 1080p graphical assets will look fine in the preview window but poorly scaled in the export.

We even went as far and implemented our export extension to automatically enable "Use Max Render Quality" on all present sequences before exporting.

[moervx]

I did a sanity check and created two identical sequences in Premiere 22 and 23.
Sequence Resolution: 3840x2160

Source Image Resolution 1920x1080
Scaling Method: Set to Frame Size

Export Resolution: 1920x1080

The only variable in this test was "Use Maximum Render Quality". For the cases where it was enabled, it was set in the sequence as well as in the export window.

Results:
The Image was always sharp in the program preview.

The only export that was sharp was the export from Premiere 22 with Maximum Render Quality enabled.

Test Files here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11u2D_6vp5KQ44dUDoGU8m5ZfiMXT6JTR

[Brice5C88]

I'm glad I haven't imagined this feature for the last 7 years! Thanks for the test

[R Neil Haugen]

The change in MAX Render Q that Jarle posted details about was a year or two back.

And that is an *export* issue,  certainly.

His testing showed MRQ should be used on both the sequence settings and all exports if any size changes existed on that sequence.

Including any use of Warp, btw.

[chrisw49527043]

Is there still no workaround for this? As others have said, it absolutely ruins the quality of footage that is made in a higher resolution and then needs to be exported at a lower resolution. I used to do this all the time and tickingthe max render quality option fixed it, but now does absolutely nothing.

I'm on version 23.6

[Brice5C88]

None to my knowlege. The work around I was using (rendering through a backdated copy of Media Encoder) is no longer working.

I've taken to exporting everything at UHD (our default sequence size) with bitrate dropped to VBR target 5 max 15. It's poor but better than HD with the potato scaling.

[R Neil Haugen]

Are you setting both the Sequence Preview setting MaxR and export MaxR?

[Brice5C88]

Yep.

[Brice5C88]

And here's the source (left) and render (right) of a HD clip on a UHD timline.

 

    

[moervx]

Bumping, as it's still a big issue in our workflow.

[Wes Howell]

From an engineering perspective, the most useful thing would be a small test project that reproduces the failure along with info on what prior release produced superior results.  Exports showing the difference between releases would be great.  Often times, the devil can be in the details so getting to a clarified simple repro case would be the clearest way to get any potential bug logged and prioritized.

[Brice5C88]

@Wes Howell I would love to but the last un-affected version of Premiere/Media Encoder was the 22 release, which is no longer availble for download and I don't have a copy of on any of our edit machines. As an Adobe Employee do you have access to a working older release?

I'm very keen to get this fixed and happy to help any way I can.

[Wes Howell]

I could probably track down an older version 🙂

Do you have a sample project that shows clear results that you can share?  I will send you a PM

[moervx]

Hey @Wes Howell,

I have done a test here, along with test files:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-bugs/max-render-quality-not-functioning/idc-p/13985699#M...

I've added 2024-05-08_Prem_MaxQ_Bug.zip, which includes project files for Premiere 22 and 24(latest update).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11u2D_6vp5KQ44dUDoGU8m5ZfiMXT6JTR

Export settings were always "Match Source High Bitrate" with only changing Resolution to 1080p and toggling Max Render Quality depending on the test.

Note that in Premiere, the image is always sharp - differences can only be observed in the final file.

The only export that was sharp was the export from Premiere 22 with Maximum Render Quality enabled.

Thanks a lot for looking into this!

[Jarle_Leirpoll]

I'm sure Wes will get to the bottom of this. But here's my thinking around this. Some of it may be obvious to some of you, but not to everyone. 

1.  Maximum Render Quality (MRQ) does nothing when the timeline does not have a red render bar. When it's red, it might, but you can't be sure until you know what effects are used.
2.  MRQ only works when a frame is rendered on the CPU (which will happen if you're suing a non-GPU-accelerated effect, even though GPU acceleration is on). 
3.  MRQ in the timeline has no influence on the export, only on the preview.
4.  To get MRQ on the export, it needs to be ticked in Export Settings
5.  As is the case in the timeline, it will do nothing for frames rendered on the GPU in your export either
6.  High Quality Playback in the Program Monitor will get you the closest to what the output will be
7.  Every timeline in Premiere Pro has an "output". So putting an UHD clip or sequence in an HD sequence will output HD, not UHD resolution, no matter what you do. This has not changed since Premiere Pro CS 5.5, AFAIK. 
8.  There's no equivalent to Collapse Tranformation from After Effects (same button as Continuously Rasterize) in Premiere Pro
9.  When you're scaling clips or sequences, some sort of re-sampling and anti-aliasing will have to be done
10.  Scaling more than once will introduce more re-sampling and more anti-aliasing
11.  H.264 will soften edges a bit more than ProRes will

For troubleshooting purposes, I'd love to see a high-res screen recording of the whole process, with different versions of Premiere Pro and the same sources. A sample export file from those different versions that shows the difference would also be great. 

[moervx]

Here's a screen recording of the process in Premiere 2022. Comparisons are at the end.

https://streamable.com/btaq04

A screen recording of Prem 24 would look the same, but with all exports looking blurry.

[Brice5C88]

I can confirm having reviewing the @moervx 's very helpful recording this is exactly how I experience it.

@Jarle_Leirpoll Thank you for the extra insight, this is really interesting. Perhaps most interesting to me is the fact that I'm sure a lot of users of 'Max Render Quality' – like myself – appear to have been using primaritly for an unintended side affect of somehow accidenrtly replicating the Collapse Tranformation from After Effects. If the original engineers did not have this planned as a feature, have we been using a bug all this time? 🤔😆

[Jarle_Leirpoll]

Sorry, all email notifications from community.adobe.com ended up in my spam folder. Now your screen recording is no longer available, so I have not seen it. 🥲

When you say "A screen recording of Prem 24 would look the same, but with all exports looking blurry." - that's an assumption, and I'd love to see that version in the recording too. When we see the whole UI in the video, we might spot a small detail that you didn't think of that's set differently, or a default setting that's been changed in the newer version.

When it comes to bugs, never assume. 😊

[moervx]

Hey @Jarle_Leirpoll,

here's a reupload:

https://streamable.com/icwvvo

Also added it here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/11u2D_6vp5KQ44dUDoGU8m5ZfiMXT6JTR

"ScreenRecording_Prem22.mp4"

[Alex367466572b5i]

@moervx Select the software engine in the project settings and in the export settings. And MRQ works in v24.3.

[moervx]

@Alex367466572b5i 

I just checked, and I can confirm that setting the project renderer to "software only" restores MRQ's original functionality.

However, this wouldn't be a viable workaround for us as it dramatically increases render times.

It might help find the root of the issue, though. Thanks!