Known Participant

Question

Color Management Still Not 100% Accurate on Wide Gamut Monitor

Forum|Forum|7 years ago
October 17, 2018
15 replies
12534 views

Hi All,

I was very excited to hear about Color Management being added to Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019. I can confirm that color and/or gamma shifts are improved when "Enable Display Color Management" is checked under Premiere Pro CC > Preferences > General. There is still, however, a slight variation between what is seen in the Premiere Pro Program Monitor and what is exported by Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 or Adobe Media Encoder CC 2019. To the naked eye, the exports from Premiere Pro and Media Encoder seem slightly washed out when played back on Quicktime, YouTube on the Safari Web browser, or on the YouTube app on the iPhone XS Max. VLC Media Player over-saturates and shifts the colors even more. I am running the latest version of Premiere Pro Version 13.0 (Build 225) on a 27-inch Late 2015 iMac with a 5K Retina display. My processor is a 4GHz Intel Core i7, my Memory is 24GB DDR3, and my Graphics Card is an AMD Radeon R9 M395X. Does anybody have any insight into what could be causing these color/gamma shifts, despite the new Color Management feature in Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 now supposed to make what we see in the Premiere Pro Program Monitor 100% accurate to what will be exported? I have included the variances below (please look closely) on a Premiere Pro-generated Bars and Tone graphic for reference. Thank you in advance for your help!

A Screenshot of the Program Monitor within Premiere Pro CC 2019:

An Exported Frame from the Premiere Pro CC 2019 Project:

Please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Playing Back in Quicktime:

Please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Uploaded to YouTube, Playing Back on the Safari Web Browser:

Please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

I understand the the differences here are very subtle and are rather hard to see in a Bars & Tone graphic on this website. These differences become much more noticeable with one's specific footage, however, and bringing these above graphics into Photoshop with the blending set to "Difference" shows the definite variance I speak of.

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance as we try to make Color Management seamless within Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019.

This topic has been closed for replies.

Show previous replies

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

oh. OK. I get it now. sorry it took so long. I thought that you might want to figure out which one of the many NON MATCHING things were sorta CORRECT. I mean, which one you can trust more ...

I get it now.

I tried to find the stuff on internet I have in my closet with camera stuff (color and gray scales, etc ) and got this but it's not nearly as cool as the pro stuff … just kinda basic

https://www.kodak.com/us/es/motion/Products/Lab_And_Post_Production/Gray_Card/default.htm

I would use something like that instead of relying on generated bars and tone from some stupid computer program where you don't even know if what it is generating is accurate.

It's a subject that has always confounded me for a gazillion years, so I hope you find some feeling of accuracy in DCM stuff. It would make sleeping at night easier to have such certainty.

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

In hindsight, I'd like to add a comment.

First of all, this issue has been around for a long time and NOBODY has totally solved it, because there simply isn't a bunch of standards that matches all monitor, computer programs, ICC profiles, etc. ( not for print and not for digital film or nothing ).

People have to struggle with it and deal with it based on their personal clients and delivery and so on. So it is and has been the wild west after the demise of the old world of cinema.

So I admire that you are trying your best to understand it and master it.

Instead of using bars and tone use something you shot (kodak stuff ) and match that. The swatches and tonal scale are extremely accurate. As are the usual back focus cine lens posters to tune up pro lenses, etc.

Use THAT stuff, load into your editor, try to match it by HOLDING UP REAL PRINTED MATERIAL ( tonal scale, swatches, etc.) next to you monitor, and check your scopes...

Then at least ( even with cheap monitors ) your adobe program should be showing you ( via rec709 sorta ) the real export we all hope for.

good luck

BMACadelicAuthor

Known Participant

Thanks for that added input. I used Bars & Tone as it's a universal way of showing the variances I was talking about. Bringing the graphics into Photoshop would and using "Difference" blending would show the variances quite clearly. What you are stating is accurate but, again, this issue has nothing to do with "matching" anything. It is how the exported footage looks different from what is seen within the Program Monitor within Premiere Pro despite Display Color Management supposed to prevent this problem. This is a technical issue and not a matching, grading, or filming issue. I shouldn't have to match anything as DCM is the issue at hand here - DCM should be taking care of these color/contrast variances and it is not perfectly doing so. I hope this clears things up for you and anyone else who may be reading this thread.

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

I'm sorry you feel that and didn't mean to spend less time than necessary to explain things to you.

a) to edit and deal with color (white balance, little black areas on bottom of scale and CMYKRGB, etc.) you have to have a BASE to calibrate from. In the pro world that is GOT from the shooting crew. The DP shoots stuff ( this is very normal ) to show what the color is for the particular REEL.

It has been my experience that editing is a process that is an EXTENSION of shooting using cameras. I hope that makes sense.

With log stuff and linear stuff and all sorts of stuff the ADOBE deals with, and monitors with different ICC profiles, calibration profiles or emulations, etc. this can get complicated.

But it starts with shooting. It ENDS with editing. I hope we can agree on that ??

I have no patience to go beyond this simple explanation or try to FIX you stupid problem with seeing different things on different platforms or browsers or monitors. Good luck !

BMACadelicAuthor

Known Participant

Again, it's very clear you're missing this point of the issue at hand here. This has nothing to do with how the footage was shot or how it is edited. It is how the exported footage looks different from what is seen within the Program Monitor within Premiere Pro despite Display Color Management supposed to prevent this problem. No worries, however - there is no need to have any more of your attempted explanations to fix my "stupid" problem because it's clear you don't even have a basic understanding of the problem being discussed in the first place. Thanks for trying.

francis-crossman10980533

Adobe Employee

What DCM does is it reads the ICC profile of your display and converts the Rec709 color space in Premiere to display correctly on your display. It only affects what you see on the display and has absolutely no effect on exported colors. Except that, of course, you need to be able to see accurate colors to make artistic judgments about color. If you view the exported file in a properly color managed app, the colors will match PPro. Quicktime player and most web browsers are NOT following the correct specifications for the Rec709 video standard and will display colors slightly off. We do not have a solution to that problem at this time, because the problem is not with PPro. I recommend using VLC player to view your files outside of PPro.

BMACadelicAuthor

Known Participant

Neil - Thank you very much for that understandable breakdown. I can agree with much of what you say, but it sounds like you're suggesting a variation such as this is normal. This isn't so much about the exported files looking different on different monitors - my tests above show that what I'm seeing within Premiere Pro is different from the exported file when the exported file is viewed in nearly every other app/browser I have on my machine - including VLC. That, to me, suggests that color management still isn't 100% accurate within Premiere Pro. I can accept a slight variation if that's what Adobe says will happen, but it's not what is being said. Adobe is advertising that we will see "perfect" colors within Premiere Pro. From the Adobe website: "Premiere Pro reads the ICC profile selected in your operating system and does a conversion to display colors perfectly on the monitor." The color management is drastically better than it was without color management, yes, and I'm very happy for this, but I'm still witnessing rather substantial contrast shifts on exported files. Based on what Adobe is saying, this shouldn't be occurring. I greatly appreciate what you've shared, but these contrast shifts and slight color shifts make the color management, at least for my workflow, far from "perfect."

Francisco - Thank you, also, for your helpful breakdown of what DCM does. I'm aware of how the DCM process works, and your input solidified this for me, but I am still not seeing the same colors within Premiere Pro as I am in every other app/browser on my machine. You are suggesting to use VLC player to view my files outside of Premiere Pro but, as you can see from the screenshot above, VLC is skewing my colors and contrast more than any other app/browser. All of this aside, however, and what concerns me the most and how I am still convinced that there is something wrong with the new Display Color Management within Premiere Pro or the Premiere Pro export process, is that exporting footage from Premiere Pro and then re-importing that footage into Adobe After Effects shows the difference I speak of. Placing the Premiere Pro Program Monitor side-by-side with the exported footage re-imported into After Effects shows the color and contrast shift I am talking about. If Premiere Pro and Adobe After Effects are using the same DCM process, shouldn't the Program Monitor and After Effects window be showing the footage with the exact same coloring and contrast? After Effects displaying the variation suggests that either Premiere Pro is not perfectly displaying colors with its DCM or that the file is being changed on export. What could be the explanation for this?

Thanks again for the help from the both of you and I look forward to resolving this issue!

V

vladvp

Adobe Employee

When you compare Pr with AE, make sure to enable color management in AE. It is Off by default in which case there is no DCM happening in AE, and image will look different. If you use digital color meter, are the values correct in the program monitor?

BMACadelicAuthor

Known Participant

Even highlighting the above graphics with your mouse cursor will show the differences I speak of - most noticeably with that black bar shift to grey in the bottom right-hand corner of the graphic.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

You are comparing your output on 3 completely color ignorant apps. Try VLC or Potplayer and Firefox browser.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

BMACadelicAuthor

Known Participant

Hi R Neil,

Thanks for the prompt reply. Playing back the exported video in either VLC or Firefox makes no difference. There is the same variation present in Firefox playback. Interestingly enough, the colors are even more skewed in VLC playback. For reference, please see the screenshots of the exported video playing back in both below:

A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Uploaded to YouTube, Playing Back on the Firefox Web Browser:

Again, please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Playing Back in VLC:

Please notice:

1) The drastically different colors in nearly every part of the Bars & Tone graphic.

All input is greatly appreciated!

Sign up

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Sign in to Adobe Community

To post, reply, or follow discussions, please sign in with your Adobe ID.

Scanning file for viruses.

This file cannot be downloaded