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dparsons85
dparsons85
Legend
June 15, 2022
Answered

Colorspace and playback on PC vs Mac / Broadcast vs YouTube

  • June 15, 2022
  • 3 replies
  • 5003 views

PC users, what video player do you use? The Windows Movie and TV app? Windows Media Player? PotPlayer? If I were on a Mac I'd just be using QT player like everyone else but the lack of a standard video play on PC is rather annoying. 

 

My main issue is the "fix" for desaturated colors from Premiere exports (described here) doesn't appear to be working for me on every app. I exported a H.264 from Premiere and the colors/levels looked correct in PotPlayer but looked washed out in the Movie and TV app and also looked washed out when watching on box.com using the Edge browser. 

 

I know there's a LUT (QT Gamma Compensation.cube) that Mac users can apply to their exports to correct for this but according to the video linked above that's not necessary for PC users. Only problem is if I apply the LUT to my export then my video will probably look correct when viewed on Macs, on PCs in the Movies and TV app and on box.com but incorrect when viewed on PCs in the PotPlayer app. 

 

I suppose wheather to appy the LUT or not is dependent on where the video will ultimately be viewed correct? If my videos is going to Youtube, Snapchat, or basically ANYWHERE other than broadcast I assume I want to add the LUT when exporting. If my video is going to broadcast I do not apply the LUT. Does this sound right?

Let me know what you'd do if you were exporting a video for YouTube for a 6 month exclusive and then it's going to broadcast after that. 2 different exports? Both Rec 709 but the YT one exported with the QT Compensation Lut? 

 

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer dparsons85

Yeah but I can't make sure everyone who watches one of my videos on YouTube has their OS colorspace set to Rec 709 2.4. When publishing to the web I think it's important to meet people where they're at - which is to assume they're using the standard OS color space and didn't change any settings on their apps. 

The LUT being destructive is fine - the H.264 going to YouTube will be made from a ProRes HQ file without the LUT so I'll always have the uneffected Rec 709 file if necessary. 

I've tested this on a couple devices and apps:
Looks good with LUT (not perfect but close enough to what I see in Premiere):
  • Windows - Firefox
  • Mac - Safari
  • Mac - Chrome
  • Xbox - YouTube through the Edge browser (weird that it looked good here but not on Windows)

 

Still a little washed out with LUT:

  • Windows - Chrome
  • Windows - Edge


Here are some screenshots of the differnces on my computer (Windows):

 

Full Res shot: https://i.imgur.com/0es8Jrf.jpeg

The LUT isn't perfect but looks way better than the washed out non-LUT version. This is a simple solution that seems to get it close enough. If you have any suggestions or other things to try let me know - if not, I'll probably just use this method.

3 replies

chrisw44157881
chrisw44157881
Inspiring
June 20, 2022

The quicktime compensation lut is pretty janky and imho should not be used because you are essentially burning in a color change. What mac uses should really do is set their OS's colorspace to Rec. 709 2.4.  What you should really use is a color 'tag'.  Most browsers use Rec. 709-A which is a variation gamma of 1.96. And Most cloud based video players use 16-235 levels. Also, your monitor's full range or video range needs to match your video card settings. 99% of monitors are video range only, either due to the firmware signal support or the HDMI interpretation at hardware level.  So, as you can see, there's a lot going on, both hardware and software, and color metadata. As for media player, even the decoders they use affect color. for example, you can set VLC to OpenGL only which can give different luma values. or quicktime player uses 1.96 gamma.  So remember to always export with embedded colorspace and gamma metadata. This is also the same recommendation for resolve.

    A
    Andy 1968
    Inspiring
    June 20, 2022

    Chirs,

    I agree. That is why I always say.  DSLR and Mirrorless cameras have an HDMI port to be connect to a TV. Playing your video clips from a camcorder to a TV will be a better and more accurate representation of what the video should look like as opposed to seeing the video on an iMac using Quicktime or a Dell laptop using OBS or Windows Media Player. There are so many settings that could be set incorrect on the Mac or PC. Not so much with a generic TV or AV monitor. 

    By default Premiere Pro on a computer screen should match what the camcorder looks like on a TV more or less. In other words it will not look funky.  With 3rd party hardware it will match 100% correct. 

      A
      Andy 1968
      Inspiring
      June 17, 2022

      You are on the right track but I think it is better to use an adjustment layer (video link below) as opposed to applying a LUT during export. An iMac and Quicktime are not industry standards and never will be. You have an OS, GPU settings and software programs to worry about. Your TV does not have all that. What does your camera look like when you connect the HDMI cable to a TV? Premiere Pro, Media Composer, Resolve and all the other professional NLEs will look identical to your camcorder when connected to the same TV using 3rd party hardware. The different programs might look a tad bit different on the computer screen but they will look identical if played on the same TV using 3rd party hardware. If you plan on doing work for broadcast 3rd party hardware form Blackmagic Design and AJA is money well spent. I left a video link below that demonstrates the power of 3rd party hardware. 




      A
      Andy 1968
      Inspiring
      June 17, 2022

      For Nvida cards it is best to set dynamic range to full. 

      R Neil Haugen
      R Neil Haugen
      Legend
      June 19, 2022

      Neil, 

      First:
      Setting the dynamic range on the computer screen to full or limited is a moot point when using broadcast compliant hardware. As far as broadcast is concerned you should not use a computer screen for color correction. No matter how I setup Premiere Pro (display color management GPU required enabled or disabled)  the image going to the AJA or Blackmagic Design devices will look the same. In fact it will look the same not matter how I setup Edius, Resolve, Premiere Pro etc. I can go to the Nvidia control panel a drain the computer screen to black and white yet the image coming from Edius on the PC will match Premiere Pro using an iMac when using 3rd party hardware. The image will look the same no matter how I setup Edius on the PC or Premeire Pro on the Mac when using broadcast compliant hardware. As I stated setting the dynamic range is a moot point when using 3rd party hardware. 

      Second:
      Premiere Pro does not look any different on the computeer screen when switching between limited and full because  Adobe uses it's own playback management system not the Windows OS.

      Third:
      The reason you want to enable full instead of limited for the Dynamic Range is because programs like OBS, Media player, YouTube etc. might make the exported H.264/265 video look washed out when it is not washed out. The Nvida Graphics cards dynamic range is limited. 

      In the photos below the lower monitor has the Dynamic Range set to full. The top monitor is set to limited. Premiere Pro looks the same on both monitors. With Dynamic range set to full the exports form Premiere Pro will not look dull and chalky when viewed on other software programs like Windows Movie Player or Windows Photo program. I have provided several photos below. Anyone with dual monitors and an Nvidia graphic card can test this out for themselves. You will say WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE!


      Keep in mind my dual monitors are stacked on top of each other as opposed to side by side. 












      To your first point ... of course, GPU settings do not apply to dedicated signal-out hardware from BlackMagic or AJA. However, even those devices oft have settings for full/limited. And the "correct" answer by every actual color management expert I've ever seen is the same, actually.

       

      In fact, most teachers of colorist work in Resolve specifically instruct people to leave Resolve's CM set to 'auto' for the whole full/limited question, and make sure their GPU settings and their dedicated signal-out gear from BM/AJA are also set correctly.

       

      Second ... that's if you have the DCM ... display color management option ... 'on' in Premiere. I do not on my system, as it's fully broadcast compliant shown by rigorous testing ... and on my system, changing the GPU from limited/auto to always full definitely has a notable effect ... a bad one.

       

      Third ... because another app has a wrong initial setting, you should set your entire system wrong? Um ... no, that's just so lame to me.

       

      OBS allows the user to set full/limited, I've easily set that on every computer I've ever used. I just see to it that the apps that allow the user a choice, are set correctly. Easy enough to to.

       

      And that gets relialbe, known, and proper behavior on my system no matter whether in or out of Premiere on my computer monitors, using both types of media ... the 'full' RGB/4:4:4:4 forms, or the 'limited' YUV forms of most Rec.709.

       

      And with all HDR forms also.

       

      Neil

      Everyone's mileage always varies ...
      R Neil Haugen
      R Neil Haugen
      Legend
      June 15, 2022

      There isn't any one-size-fits-all answer ... sadly.

       

      When Apple chose to apply their odd 1.96 gamma to Rec.709 media, it pretty much flummoxed everything up. Well, worse than it was already.

       

      Why?

       

      You can't expect to 'see' a file the same when different systems apply different gamma/CM settings to the same file. And there's no way around it. Macs apply 1.96, the rest of the world is either 2.4 (broadcast, TVs, many PCs) or 2.2 (typical web use, some PCs).

       

      On the Mac ... the ColorSync CM utility sets that gamma, and all "color managed' apps allow ColorSync to control things. Including the QuickTime Player and Safari and Chrome browsers.

       

      But ... VLC player and Firefox can be set to ignore ColorSync, and may actually use gamma 2.4 on the Mac. So they will look closer to a broadcast or 'web' view than QT, Chrome, and Safari. On the same computer.

       

      Yea, that's a right mess.

       

      And as to no 'standard' player on PCs, well ... on PCs, CM depends on how you have each app setup, really. Or your monitor/GPU settings.

       

      But hey, there isn't a solid color standard that all TVs are set to either ... outta the box, the image from TV to TV will be all over the place. Saturation, brightness/blacks/hues ... all over the place.

       

      So ... colorist's learn you grade to the main professional standards, and then ... just let it go Out in The Wild and fuhgedaboudit. As the old saying goes, "You can't fix gramma's green TV".

       

      I would add ... any professionally produced media you watch on the Mac in QT has that 1.96 gamma applied ... and I can guarantee you it wasn't GRADED to 1.96, nothing is.

       

      So ... the media you see on your system isn't shown even close to how it was graded. Have you noticed?

       

      Probably not ... because as that's the way everything appears, it looks 'natural'. Weird but true.

       

      Neil

      Everyone's mileage always varies ...
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