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Colorspace and playback on PC vs Mac / Broadcast vs YouTube

Forum|Forum|3 years ago
June 15, 2022
3 replies
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PC users, what video player do you use? The Windows Movie and TV app? Windows Media Player? PotPlayer? If I were on a Mac I'd just be using QT player like everyone else but the lack of a standard video play on PC is rather annoying.

My main issue is the "fix" for desaturated colors from Premiere exports (described here) doesn't appear to be working for me on every app. I exported a H.264 from Premiere and the colors/levels looked correct in PotPlayer but looked washed out in the Movie and TV app and also looked washed out when watching on box.com using the Edge browser.

I know there's a LUT (QT Gamma Compensation.cube) that Mac users can apply to their exports to correct for this but according to the video linked above that's not necessary for PC users. Only problem is if I apply the LUT to my export then my video will probably look correct when viewed on Macs, on PCs in the Movies and TV app and on box.com but incorrect when viewed on PCs in the PotPlayer app.

I suppose wheather to appy the LUT or not is dependent on where the video will ultimately be viewed correct? If my videos is going to Youtube, Snapchat, or basically ANYWHERE other than broadcast I assume I want to add the LUT when exporting. If my video is going to broadcast I do not apply the LUT. Does this sound right?

Let me know what you'd do if you were exporting a video for YouTube for a 6 month exclusive and then it's going to broadcast after that. 2 different exports? Both Rec 709 but the YT one exported with the QT Compensation Lut?

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer dparsons85

Yeah but I can't make sure everyone who watches one of my videos on YouTube has their OS colorspace set to Rec 709 2.4. When publishing to the web I think it's important to meet people where they're at - which is to assume they're using the standard OS color space and didn't change any settings on their apps.

The LUT being destructive is fine - the H.264 going to YouTube will be made from a ProRes HQ file without the LUT so I'll always have the uneffected Rec 709 file if necessary.

I've tested this on a couple devices and apps:

Looks good with LUT (not perfect but close enough to what I see in Premiere):

Windows - Firefox
Mac - Safari
Mac - Chrome
Xbox - YouTube through the Edge browser (weird that it looked good here but not on Windows)

Still a little washed out with LUT:

Windows - Chrome
Windows - Edge

Here are some screenshots of the differnces on my computer (Windows):

Full Res shot: https://i.imgur.com/0es8Jrf.jpeg

The LUT isn't perfect but looks way better than the washed out non-LUT version. This is a simple solution that seems to get it close enough. If you have any suggestions or other things to try let me know - if not, I'll probably just use this method.

chrisw44157881

Inspiring

The quicktime compensation lut is pretty janky and imho should not be used because you are essentially burning in a color change. What mac uses should really do is set their OS's colorspace to Rec. 709 2.4. What you should really use is a color 'tag'. Most browsers use Rec. 709-A which is a variation gamma of 1.96. And Most cloud based video players use 16-235 levels. Also, your monitor's full range or video range needs to match your video card settings. 99% of monitors are video range only, either due to the firmware signal support or the HDMI interpretation at hardware level. So, as you can see, there's a lot going on, both hardware and software, and color metadata. As for media player, even the decoders they use affect color. for example, you can set VLC to OpenGL only which can give different luma values. or quicktime player uses 1.96 gamma. So remember to always export with embedded colorspace and gamma metadata. This is also the same recommendation for resolve.

Andy 1968

Inspiring

Chirs,

I agree. That is why I always say. DSLR and Mirrorless cameras have an HDMI port to be connect to a TV. Playing your video clips from a camcorder to a TV will be a better and more accurate representation of what the video should look like as opposed to seeing the video on an iMac using Quicktime or a Dell laptop using OBS or Windows Media Player. There are so many settings that could be set incorrect on the Mac or PC. Not so much with a generic TV or AV monitor.

By default Premiere Pro on a computer screen should match what the camcorder looks like on a TV more or less. In other words it will not look funky. With 3rd party hardware it will match 100% correct.

Andy 1968

Inspiring

You are on the right track but I think it is better to use an adjustment layer (video link below) as opposed to applying a LUT during export. An iMac and Quicktime are not industry standards and never will be. You have an OS, GPU settings and software programs to worry about. Your TV does not have all that. What does your camera look like when you connect the HDMI cable to a TV? Premiere Pro, Media Composer, Resolve and all the other professional NLEs will look identical to your camcorder when connected to the same TV using 3rd party hardware. The different programs might look a tad bit different on the computer screen but they will look identical if played on the same TV using 3rd party hardware. If you plan on doing work for broadcast 3rd party hardware form Blackmagic Design and AJA is money well spent. I left a video link below that demonstrates the power of 3rd party hardware.

Andy 1968

Inspiring

For Nvida cards it is best to set dynamic range to full.

Andy 1968

Inspiring

I think it would be helpful if you maybe thought about my comments. I replied specifically, numbered, in order of your comments. If you go look, I responded directly, point by point, to your points. As in, you were the one mentioning BM/AJA workflows ...in your first point. so I responded directly.

And yes, when doing workflows with dedicated signal in/out gear and Grade 1 Reference monitors, there are still the settings for legal/limited to be aware of in the total chain.

Whether Flanders/Eizo/Whatever, there will still be full/legal settings for SDR work. Why?

Because it's written into the standards all broadcast compliant setups use. RGB 4444 media is expected to be encoded as 'full', and (nearly all) YUV media is expected to be encoded as limited.

And when your display chain is setup correctly, both will be displayed as ... 0-255. No lifted or crushed blacks for either RGB or YUV full or limited media.

That's how Resolve works in 'auto' mode, btw ... and how Premiere works.

Then, your comment about my response to your point three, about cross-use of OBS or whatever ... again, you brought up the use of those apps and said that the way to get cross-compliance between them was to set the Nvidia GPU setting to 'full' for all use.

I stated that to my understanding, that is an incorrect way to remedy the situation, and that one should go to the OBS settings and change those (if wrong on your machine) to legal. Then of course, OBS, Premiere, Nvidia are all on the same page, and DO work correctly.

So your comment that I'm confused and need to test things is both utterly bizarre and rather silly. I respond directly to your comment, point out how correctly changing the one setting in OBS instead of making a mistake with the GPU fixes the problem you raised ... and I'm confused and need to test things.

Really?

Clearly ... I have tested things. I've spent days testing things. On a range of different media, across applications, with thorough cross-checking of levels on scopes. Taking media between various apps to see that across ALL apps used, the workflow is correct, without error. Bars & tone shown correctly in any other app whether it's an RGB/4444 "full" range clip or a YUV 422 clip, without my having to do anything.

When all is setup correctly, it works perfectly as it is designed to work.

I can work in and export from OBS, Premiere, Resolve, AfterEffects, MediaEncoder, in any format, in both legal and full range media, and get perfect display of that media in any other professional application.

I've had my tests run by several different colorists on their systems to check to see that my scopes and display are showing the same thing theirs is ... bars/tone, ramps, graded media. It all is said to be spot-on. And would easily pass a dreaded QC machine.

Which ... if someone is playing with the 'full' for everything GPU switch, they might well have trouble with. That is actually not uncommon with beginning colorists ... that think that the 'full' setting must be better. And get a job, and ... their deliverable fails the QC machine, and they're wondering why.

Premiere works best, most 'naturally' across gear, when the settings are set correctly ... and just as they should be for Resolve or whatnot. Giving reference points for professional working.

I've tested all these on my gear. My test results also conform with the data of the entire panoply of color management experts. So I have solid reason to accept the results of my tests.

And I will comfortably say that your suggestions do not follow any 'normal' professional working model I've ever seen.

But if they work fine for you, hey, go for it! I have no problem with that whatever.

But for anyone who needs to work collaboratively with other video post, or wants to actually know what are the 'normal' correct settings, well ... following your suggestion may lead to a world of hurt.

Neil

Neil,

You wrote the following below.
I think it would be helpful if you maybe thought about my comments. I replied specifically, numbered, in order of your comments. If you go look, I responded directly, point by point, to your points. As in, you were the one mentioning BM/AJA workflows ...in your first point. so I responded directly.

And yes, when doing workflows with dedicated signal in/out gear and Grade 1 Reference monitors, there are still the settings for legal/limited to be aware of in the total chain.

I think it would be wise for you to think about my comments and try and comprehend what I wrote instead of responding to what you wish I had wrote. I was referring to the Nvidia GPU settings for dynamic range. You responded by talking about full and limited settings with the Blackmagic Design products and AJA products. They do not have a full and limited setting for dynamic range. Your only response should have been "Andy is correct with 3rd party hardware Edius, Premiere Pro Resolve etc will look the exact same". There are some settings in the control panel for the AJA and Blackmagic Design products but the option for full and limited dynamic range is not one of them and never was.

You also wrote the following below
Because it's written into the standards all broadcast compliant setups use. RGB 4444 media is expected to be encoded as 'full', and (nearly all) YUV media is expected to be encoded as limited.

I am well aware that there are options for RGB 4:4:4 and Y, CB, CR 4:2:2 color space but color space is not the same as dynamic range. You would agree with that? Keep in mind no one is arguing things must be set up correctly with 3rd party hardware but I am not talking about settings in Resolve or 3rd party hardware. I am saying that if you have an Nvidia graphics card it is best to set the dynamic range to full. Not becuase of Edius Premiere or Resolve but because Media Player and Photo Viewer will look better. I posted the video about 3rd party hardware for reference purposes only because the poster for this thread mentioned broadcasting his project.

You also wrote the following below.
Whether Flanders/Eizo/Whatever, there will still be full/legal settings for SDR work. Why?
Because it's written into the standards all broadcast compliant setups use. RGB 4444 media is expected to be encoded as 'full', and (nearly all) YUV media is expected to be encoded as limited.

Once again I am referring to using basic computer monitors with an Nvidia GPU and setting the dynamic, range to full. It is not going to affect the NLE but the GPU settings will impact Windows Photo Viewer and Windows Media Player among other software programs. I think you are rambling on and on and on about everything other than the Nvidia GPU's settings for dynamic range.

You wrote the following below.
That's how Resolve works in 'auto' mode, btw ... and how Premiere works.

Once again I am not talking about setting in Resolve or Premiere Pro. I am talking about settings in the Nvidia control panel. Do you finally get it?

You wrote the following below:
I can work in and export from OBS, Premiere, Resolve, AfterEffects, MediaEncoder, in any format, in both legal and full range media, and get perfect display of that media in any other professional application.

So can I! Should I brag about it?

You also wrote the following.
I've had my tests run by several different colorists on their systems to check to see that my scopes and display are showing the same thing theirs is ... bars/tone, ramps, graded media. It all is said to be spot-on. And would easily pass a dreaded QC machine.

I have used Edius, Media Compser, Resolve, Premiere Pro FCPX etc with the Blackmagic Design Products and other 3rd party hardware to show that the colors match 100%. I have to be doing something right. Have you done any tutorials I could view?

You posted the following.
Which ... if someone is playing with the 'full' for everything GPU switch, they might well have trouble with. That is actually not uncommon with beginning colorists ... that think that the 'full' setting must be better. And get a job, and ... their deliverable fails the QC machine, and they're wondering why.

It is very easy to say it is a bad idea but proving it is a bad idea might be a tad bit harder.. Do a video tutorial that demonstrates how using two average computer monitors and setting the Nvidia GPU's dynamic range to full instead of limited is a bad idea. Can you please do that for us?

As you can imagine you wrote the following below.
Premiere works best, most 'naturally' across gear, when the settings are set correctly ... and just as they should be for Resolve or whatnot. Giving reference points for professional working.

You are not saying anything new. I have stated many many times that Media Composer, Premiere Pro, Resolve, Edius etc must be set up correctly. In fact, unlike you, I demonstrate how to set things up for Resolve, Edius, Media Composer and FCPX in my video tutorials.

You left the comments below.
I've tested all these on my gear. My test results also conform with the data of the entire panoply of color management experts. So I have solid reason to accept the results of my tests. And I will comfortably say that your suggestions do not follow any 'normal' professional working model I've ever seen.

You stated you asked color experts. How many projects have you worked on that were broadcasted or DCI (Digital Cinema Initiatives) compliant for theaters?

Last but not least you wrote the following below.
But for anyone who needs to work collaboratively with other video post, or wants to actually know what are the 'normal' correct settings, well ... following your suggestion may lead to a world of hurt.

How will using 3rd party hardware from Blackmagic Design lead to a world of hurt? You know I have an Ultrastudio Monitor don't you? I think you spent a lot of time creating strawmen arguments. Having said that talk is cheap. I am not saying that for your work flow setting the Nvidia GPU's dynamic range to full will have no impact. I will say you need to create a video demonstrating how having the GPU's dynamic range set full will put the user in a world of hurt when using basic computer monitors and an RTX 2070. I posted several screen shots demonstrating there is no effect on the NLE when switching the GPU' dynamic range to full or unlimited. There is an affect on other programs when doing so. The Windows program will look much better as well as a few other programs. The playback of the videos you render out from Premiere Pro will look much better if the Nvidia GPU's dynamic range is set to full. Do you disagree with that?

R Neil Haugen

Legend

There isn't any one-size-fits-all answer ... sadly.

When Apple chose to apply their odd 1.96 gamma to Rec.709 media, it pretty much flummoxed everything up. Well, worse than it was already.

Why?

You can't expect to 'see' a file the same when different systems apply different gamma/CM settings to the same file. And there's no way around it. Macs apply 1.96, the rest of the world is either 2.4 (broadcast, TVs, many PCs) or 2.2 (typical web use, some PCs).

On the Mac ... the ColorSync CM utility sets that gamma, and all "color managed' apps allow ColorSync to control things. Including the QuickTime Player and Safari and Chrome browsers.

But ... VLC player and Firefox can be set to ignore ColorSync, and may actually use gamma 2.4 on the Mac. So they will look closer to a broadcast or 'web' view than QT, Chrome, and Safari. On the same computer.

Yea, that's a right mess.

And as to no 'standard' player on PCs, well ... on PCs, CM depends on how you have each app setup, really. Or your monitor/GPU settings.

But hey, there isn't a solid color standard that all TVs are set to either ... outta the box, the image from TV to TV will be all over the place. Saturation, brightness/blacks/hues ... all over the place.

So ... colorist's learn you grade to the main professional standards, and then ... just let it go Out in The Wild and fuhgedaboudit. As the old saying goes, "You can't fix gramma's green TV".

I would add ... any professionally produced media you watch on the Mac in QT has that 1.96 gamma applied ... and I can guarantee you it wasn't GRADED to 1.96, nothing is.

So ... the media you see on your system isn't shown even close to how it was graded. Have you noticed?

Probably not ... because as that's the way everything appears, it looks 'natural'. Weird but true.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

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