How to use Wide Gamut workflows in Adobe Premiere?

[Jerome Raim]

Sorry to re-open this old thread/wound.

I am attempting to export out of Premiere, Sony Venice debayered as S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3. The idea is that I export an ungraded ProRes 444 master out of Premiere and grade it in Resolve.

Setting timeline working space to Rec709 and exporting Rec709 looks *almost* right but seems to have some gamut clipping or compression. Setting working space or export space to PQ or HLG results in something else entirely.

I was hoping I could export to a larger gamut out of Premiere and "Color Space Transform" in Resolve, but so far I have not found a way to map the Rec2100/PQ or HLG back to Sgamut-3.cine/Slog3. Some Adobe secret-sauce at play maybe?

R Neil Haugen, any thoughts on how to accomplish this?

Best,

Jerome

[Moderator note: discussion split off from old thread to new one as things have changed somewhat.]

[R Neil Haugen]

There's no way to export to a CineLog or s-gamut out of Premiere. I'm not even sure you could do that in Resolve.

To get the widest color gamut out, I would suggest using either a PQ or HLG Rec2020 sequence, do your editing. Then use that chart for exporting to either HLG or PQ in Rec.2020.

The Scopes panel can be set for color gamut/space also, and I would suggest doing so. As long as you aren't getting any crushed blacks showing, Premiere should not clip any highlights/whites. So check for crushed blacks in the scopes If you've got any, simply lift the image up. Don't worry about the monitoring so much ... that's still dicey unless you're running say a Decklink card out to a full HDR.

If you have a Decklink or AJA output to a monitor, you can probably see the PrPro image correctly. Or pretty close.

If your transmit out monitor is HDR capable, and in the OS settings you can set it to use that in HDR, you may get a usable image. My setup doesn't really allow for confident HDR work, as I don't have a Decklink, and my BenQ PD2720U (I think that's the name of the thing) monitor is supposedly "HDR capable" but only goes up to about 350 nits in HDR mode.

But again, working with sequence and scopes in Rec2020 either PQ of HLG, then exporting to ProRes following their chart settings ... and they've an updated chart around somewhere here ... you should be able to get everything out.

Fun thing is Adobe is on a company wide summer vacay time this week. Don't know if any developer will answer our "call" ...

@Francis-Crossman  ... @Trent Happel 

Neil

[Jerome Raim]

Hi Neil,

Thanks for answering so promptly.

When working non color managed in Resolve, it will not do any kind of gamut compression/clipping. So ProRes mezzanine files for any Wide gamut (ALEXA, Sony, RED, etc.) properly preserves the gamut.

The HLG/PQ export out of Premiere is not making any sense. Meaning I am unable to reverse-engineer what Adobe is doing to get back to proper S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3.

[R Neil Haugen]

Which part of the export process isn't making sense? Let's see if we can sort it out.

Neil

[Jerome Raim]

Here's a 1-frame trimmed original OCM to illustrate the issue:

https://lion.box.com/s/7oo562vt302auy5qqdt5egql6avwfsyk

In Premiere, I set RAW X-OCN debayerying to S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3.

Timeline color working space is kept at Rec709 (other color spaces don't help).

Export settings is QuickTime Apple ProRes 444 16bit. All Export color spaces tested (Rec709, PQ and HLG).

Rec709 offers the closest match to properly debayered footage (as debayered in Resolve or Sony RAW Viewer). HLG and PQ is doing "something". When I take the HLG and PQ versions into Resolve, no matter what Color Space Transforms I apply, I cannot get them to match Resolve's/Sony's S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 debayering.

Attached JPGs are:

- Properly debayered out of Resolve

- Premiere's Rec709 export

- Premiere PQ export

[Jerome Raim]

I believe this issue stems in part due to Premiere's awareness that the source is S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 (since the source is RAW and Premiere is the one doing the debayering).

If I export the properly debayered footage out of Resolve as a ProRes 444, bring it into Premiere and re-export it out of Premiere, Premiere does not touch the gamut and I get a 1:1 with Resolve's export.

[Lars Borg Adobe]

Your images look washed out.

Below is what I get with color management enabled. Does this look like the original scene?
Note that I set the importer to 709. 

The sample image includes no reference colors. I'd like to see if the contrast and gamut are correct. Do you have an image of a chart?

In Pr 22.0.0 there curently seems to be a disconnect between Sony Raw settings and interpret footage.

The former shows sgamut.cine options for slog, but not rec2020.

The latter shows Rec2020 as the only gamut option for Slog.

Can yuo try with 709 as import option?

 

[Jerome Raim]

Thanks for chiming in, Lars! Your screenshot shows you are debayerying Rec709 but I need it to be S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3. So I am looking to export out a "washed out" image (aka imagery that goes beyond Rec709 gamut).

So I need to set the debayer to S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 and export a ProRes 444 (or any decent mezzanine format) that includes the full S-Gamut3.cine gamut. This file will then be notched and graded in a third party software.

[Lars Borg Adobe]

Can you provide a chart image?

With a chart image I maybe able to verify that colors can be correct (or not).

I don't want to speculate about color conversions or not, without reference footage.

The debayer always happens in original camera space, as you can't color convert CFA pixels. After debayering, you have RGB pixels. The importer may or may not convert the RGB pixels to other color spaces and may or may not label the resulting color space accordingly. Too many may's there for my comfort.

AFAIK ProRes doesn't support tagging media as S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3.

There are two other options: tag the media falsely as 709 (and no color conversion), or let the pixels be converted (color correctly) to a proper wide gamut space, such as BT2100 PQ.

It seems you want the former, in which case you want all color management turned off (a.k.a. 709)

[Jerome Raim]

Unfortunately no charts were shot, but I used this specifc frame because of the saturated lights that demonstrate the debayering mismatch.

In a previous post I provided a JPG of how Sony RAW Viewer/Resolve/Baselight/Transkoder debayer it (properly_debayered.jpg). These four softwares all debayer the X-OCN identically.

I don't need accurate ncl tags since I will either ignore them or override them in other softwares. And I don't need these to be ProRes either. If rendering TIFF, EXR or DPX would match what the other softwares are doing, I'd go that route.

Attaching screenshots of Premiere's debayer with Lumetri scopes vs Resolve's debayer with Lumetry scopes

[Lars Borg Adobe]

Thanks. Yes, I see the difference.

Look at the gap between the lower reds in the center of the scope.

Resolve is more like Premiere's SGamut, not SGamut.cine.

Right now, not sure how to set PR to match.

[R Neil Haugen]

Thanks for popping back in Lars. I couldn't sort this out myself, but my HDR "setup" is still pretty low-confidence as far as I'm concerned.

Neil

[Jerome Raim]

Out of curiosity I tested Premiere's S-Gamut3 debayerying and that doesn't match either.

To be clear, Resolve's debayerying in both S-Gamut3 and S-Gamut3.cine matches:

- Sony RAW Viewer

- Baselight

- Colorfront

Premiere is the oulier.

I was curious to check out other RAW debayerying in Premiere. I can confirm that RED debayerying (REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10) and ARRI (ALEXA Wide Gamut/LogC) match the manufacturers' own tools (REDCine X and ARRIRAW Converter respectively).

I do hope Adobe will look into fixing soon the Sony debayerying so that it's in line with Sony's intent.