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MbtF Vidéos
Inspiring
September 10, 2022
Question

Import files Apple ProRes RAW in Premiere and in Final Cut Pro X

  • September 10, 2022
  • 1 reply
  • 5166 views

Hi,

I work on a MacPro 5.1 ( mi-2010 ) and Mac OS Mojave 10.14.6.

I use Final Cut Pro 10.4.10 for some time and started with Premirer Pro 15.4.5.

I have a problem with Apple ProRes RAW file import.

When I import this type of file into FCP X the rush is absolutely identical to what I get when I open it in Quicktime and it matches my filming settings.

When I import the same file in Premiere I have a much clearer picture that is not usable.

It is in both cases the opening of a native image before any post-production.

They should be identical with both software.

 

Has anyone ever had this problem ?

Thank's for your answers and your help.

 

Cordialement.

This topic has been closed for replies.

1 reply

R Neil Haugen
R Neil Haugen
Legend
September 10, 2022

This is probably due to being on a Mac.

 

The standard for "standard" video ... Rec.709 ... has been set for many years. And at first, it was only a camera or "scene referred" set of instructions. And was designed to work with the available display technology, back when all monitors were the big cathode ray tubes, which had it's own built-in specific response or gamma .... roughly equivalent to gamma 2.4.

 

Then digital monitors replaced the CRT monitors, and to match, rather than changing the CAMERA setting, it was easiest to simply append a DISPLAY setting/standard to the then-current Rec.709 standard. Almost 20 years ago now.

 

Hence the Rec.709 standard had the Bt.1886 display transform specs appended to it. That's been the in-use standard for nearly two decades.

 

However ... Apple for some odd reason, setup their ColorSync color management utility to only use the camera/scene-referred "original" Rec.709, and does not apply Bt.1886 display settings.

 

So the result is essentially a display gamma of 1.96, which is going to lift the shadows a lot more than the display gamma 2.4 that is specified for 'normal' pro SDR/Rec.709 workflows.

 

Premiere is designed to follow the actual standards. And expects a monitor set to gamma 2.4. Hence ... it's different than "color managed" apps on a Mac, "color managed" here meaing that the Mac OS ColorSync utility is allowed to handle CM settings. Premiere does not allow ColorSync to mess with the image.

 

I am a contributing author at MixingLight, a pro colorist's teaching website. My 'beat' is dealing with pro colorists coming out of Resolve when they can't work in that and have to color a project in Premiere. Those people are heavily towards the Mac side, as you would expect.

 

And they are furious with Apple for so stupidly setting up this mess. Because there isn't a 'fix'. You can't make a file that looks the same when displayed at gamma 1.96 and gamma 2.4.

 

And explaining this mess time after time to their clients is a HUGE pain also.

 

What to do? Good question. There's ... workarounds, none particularly satisfying. Do set the preferences option for "Display color management" to on, most definitely. Past that ...

 

Adobe came out with the 'gamma compensation LUT' that is to be applied in the Effects tab of the Export dialog/page. Which will darken the shadows so the file, when viewed at gamma 1.96, looks pretty much like the file without that LUT at gamma 2.4 within Premiere.

 

Unfortunately, that means the file viewed on any actual Rec.709 compliant pro broadcast/streaming system will be way too dark. Pick your poison ... look 'good' on a Mac, dark everywhere else.

 

BlackMagic came up with a different but similar trick ... the "Rec.709-A" export option. Which sets the NLC tags of the file to 1-2-1 rather than 1-1-1 for 'standard' Rec.709. That 2 is 'unspecified' in the NLC standards list, but interestingly when applied to a file, then displayed in any ColorSync managed app, gets a 2.4 gamma applied.

 

Sadly, though that then 'fixes' the file for viewing on a Mac, like the Adobe LUT, on most other gear that causes the file to be too dark.

 

Neither Adobe, BlackMagic, nor Avid can fix what Apple messed up with mis-applied standards. Sorry, but ... it's a mess.

 

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...
M
MbtF VidéosAuthor
Inspiring
September 13, 2022

Thank you Neil for this very long and informative answer.

 

But if I ask Premiere to export me an identical file to the source, with a perfect match, it must export me a file strictly identical to my Apple Pro REs RAW file.

And no matter of the gamma setting of the screen.
See the screen shot to see my export settings.

 

On the other screen shot showing the two images and a Black and White Chart, the one on the right is the export of Premiere. You can see that the Quicktime image on the left is the right one.

 

For now, when I work with Final Cut Pro, my settings are : Apple ProRes 422 HQ and BT 2020.

So, right now, I don’t know how to use Premiere.

 

Cordialement.

 

R Neil Haugen
R Neil Haugen
Legend
September 15, 2022

Thank you for your time in trying to answer me.

I will still look again.

I am convinced that the image imported in Premiere must be identical to that imported in final Cut Pro.

Maybe the problem is the version 15 of Premiere ?

I download Resolve but with Mac OS 10.14.6 this is version 17, and it cannot import Apple ProRes Raw.

 

So I keep looking.

 

Cordialement.

 

 


"I am convinced that the image imported in Premiere must be identical to that imported in final Cut Pro."

 

If they used the same color management, they would be close but not necessarily identical. 

 

Why? You simply cannot have two different applications decoding a RAW file identically. Each will have its own coding for that file. There isn't a "standard" decoding process. Period.

 

Resolve and Baselight are the two most used pro grading apps. Each has its own options for any RAW files, and they are never identical.

 

That's between high-end grading apps. And doesn't even talk about the mess with Apple color management internally and intentionally mis-displaying Rec.709 media due to their odd gamma choice.

 

Those aren't opinions, they're just Reality. I wish it wasn't so but neither I nor anyone else can change them.

 

Well, Apple could easily fix their gamma problems.

 

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...
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