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dparsons85
Legend
April 18, 2024
Question

Is it possible to export sRGB from Premiere or Media Encoder?

  • April 18, 2024
  • 3 replies
  • 7413 views

Simple question. I want my videos on YouTube to look like they do in Premiere (color and gamma), the only way I've found I can achieve that is by doing this:

  • Export from Premiere as ProRes HQ, with a color space of Rec 709 Gamma 2.4
  • Bring the export into After Effects and put it in a timeline that matches it's specs
  • Change the Working Color Space to sRGB
  • Export as ProRes HQ
  • Bring the sRGB ProRes file into Media Encdoer and export as a H.264
  • Upload to Youtube

 

I'd like to avoid round tripping through After Effects to change it's color space. Is this possible?

3 replies

kalamazandy
Known Participant
February 6, 2025

I swear I had figured this out at some point, but the issue made it's way back. 
It seems that @R Neil Haugen is the most practiced expert in the area, so I made sure and put that tag to help clear things up.Color grading is one thing, and you might just deal with the fact that web, even different browsers, adjust video gamma slightly different from each other and ignore color profiles entirely. From what I can tell, browsers (and many video players in general) assume content is sRGB rather than Rec.709.

It's probably not a huge deal in most cases, but for branded material where a solid brand related color is used on a web page And a video, that color shift can be significant enough for graphic design folks to be upset. 

I gave a video to someone and they said they changed the color profile to srgb and it matched much closer. I have no idea how they did that, but that's what they said. The challenge I always have is, regardless of being AfterEffects or Premiere, when I input a color, how do I tell the software that I'm specifying an sRGB color rather than whatever the working colorspace is?

Am I correct that Premiere only allows for working in Rec color spaces, but in AfterEffects you can specify the color space in ways that are incredibly confusing overall, but you've got serious control.

 

I would Love to find an in depth training on color spaces in terms of input and output, conversions, and monitors. It seems they are always focused on making sure I am seeing the color correctly, and that I am outputting the color based on the monitor I am viewing it on. That's definitely true for someone that is color grading. But if I'm doing a 4 color brand animation, I want to input the 4 sRGB values, and I want to output the same 4 sRGB values, ignoring my monitor profiles entirely. It becomes even More complicated when using OCIO color workflow with 32bit exr files which are treated as linear, and also having to mix in sRGB values (obviously talking about after effects here), then moving that footage to premiere, and output the final file as Rec.709...only to have the colors shift because the final output is displayed in a web browser that shifts the colors back to sRGB.

 

I may be incorrect about what's going on. I'm just trying to explain my understanding, and hoping to be pointed in the right direction at how to input an sRGB value for a solid color, and have the output h.264 file displayed in a web browser be as close as possible to the input value. Again, understanding there are slight differences in the sRGB values because sRGB is not a straight 2.2 gamma, so you can't just apply a gamma adjustment to get the same values. 

R Neil Haugen
Legend
February 6, 2025

If you're needing to worry about a pro level color setup, then fhe first thing is you need someone to correctly calibrate your monitor! NO consumer/prosumer monitor comes really correctly set top to bottom ... period. I don't care what fancy certificate they send with it.

 

And if you don't have the charts from a profile pass, showing the actual results of color being sent to the monitor measured and graphed ... you have no way of knowing how close your monitor is to the standard.

 

Any proper calibration is a two-step process ... the first, the calibration, sets the monitor response according to the capabilities of the probe and software used coupled with monitor capabilities to be controlled.

 

The second step is a profile pass. Using a software designed to do this, it runs a set of color patches to the monitor, reads the results, and gives you a set of graphs showing what that monitor is now doing. Precisely.

 

After that, with a good or at least acceptable profile pass, you're at least seeing a pretty close to 'standard' image on screen.

 

You can do this yourself, or you can hire it done. LightIllusions.com and Calman both have the capabilities and the "white papers" explaining all of this on their websites. I highly recommend going to the LIghtIllusions website and looking through Steve Shaw's awesome set of papers on digital color, color spaces, hardware realities, and monitor settings and calibrations.

 

OK, i'm all calibrated and profiled ... will my clients be happy with my stuff?

 

Well, now the issue will be that their monitors are screwy, guaranteed ... and if they don't understand this, you have a bit of a pickle. It's something pro colorists have to deal with over and over.  Most colorists have a very highlighted part of their standard everybody signs this!!!!  contract, that specifically states all color and tonal corrections requested must be done while viewing on an approved monitor.

 

And they specifically list what they accept ... typically their own suite, or another broadcast standard suite.

 

I know a number of colorists who have a process for helping their clients get past the problem using one series of high-end Mac iPads. That particular unit, with some tweaking they do to image settings, can pretty closely match either Rec.709 or Rec.2100 (think HLG) and so they have a stack of them at their shop.

 

They loan them out to clients and attempt to get them back after delivery. But at least, the client is using a fairly decent screen for their evaluative process.

 

Past the above, many state that if the requested changes are from a non-approved monitor, those changes are final. And final payment will be due no matter what the client thinks later.

 

Premiere can easily fit within the proper color for most professional workflows. If you know what you start with, where you need to go, and what pass-throughs you need in specifics. There are still a couple things you can't really do well in Premiere, they are acknowledged by Mr. Van Hurkman, and will be forthcoming at some future point. Like a full-on ACES workflow.

 

What color management is currently available in Premiere?

 

Go to the Color Workspace, Lumetri panel, and the Settings tab. The tab named Settings.

 

There are several sections there, from project wide  through clip and sequence, along with working space and pass-through options. If you need further information on those specifics, ask.

 

Shebbe or I or some others can pop in and help.

Everyone's mileage always varies ...
kalamazandy
Known Participant
February 7, 2025

Skipping color management is at the top of the CM options, not way down with the sequence. "Preserve RGB" or something like that.

 

You mention things that could be from several different issues, and that actually illustrates my point perfectly. As ... you simply cannot control all of the variables here. Whatsofreakingever.

 

First ... are you on a Mac, and more specifically, on a Mac without Reference modes for the monitor?

 

As if you are, then thanks to Apple, you have a different issue ... an incorrect display transform applied to Rec.709 video displayed images. But only in QuickTime Player, Chrome, and Safari.

 

For some reason, Macs without Reference modes will apply a display transform for Rec.709 media files essentially equivalent to a gamma of 1.96. The proper standard, as required in the Rec.709 addenda Bt.1886, is essentially gamma 2.4.

 

On Macs without Reference modes, VLC and Potplayer, and Firefox browser, will more often apply the correct display transform as they tend to disregard Apple's in-OS color management.

 

So viewing the file in Premiere, well ... what do you have Premiere's viewing gamma set to? If 1.96/Qt, then outside Premiere it should match in Qt player pretty close. Of course, the rest of the world will now see a very dark, overly saturated image. Because the file was prepped for that lighter shadow display setup.

 

Oh ... and from some rather high-end colorist-level testing I've seen, Apple doesn't stick the best color transform for Rec.709's sRGB primaries, to fit correctly on the monitor's native P3 color space, in their CM either. Which is why Rec.709 video shown in Qt player is not only lighter but "less visually saturated" ... though it isn't just a saturation issue, the hues are actually mapped wrong.

 

But a Mac with Reference modes set to HDTV will show the correct display transform for Rec.709. And will match other properly calibrated monitors across broadcast and android and PC and TVs.

 

What about screen brightness?

 

First, understand what happens with different brightnesses to perceived color. In your work, simply 'lift' the L value and see the visual difference. The hex codes also change, don't they?

 

Most monitors these days are far, far brighter than the specs for Rec.709. It isn't an issue in general work, but ... I cannot overstate the following:

 

If you are trying to match specific hue values, you must have the monitors both set as close as possible AND the viewing environment must be identical!!!!!!!!!

 

There is a reason the viewing environment gets as much attention in the Rec.709 colorist setup specs as the screen. You cannot change the screen brightness, or the room brightness, and get a visually identical image.

 

As the brightness value of an item changes in RGB triplicate notations, it's relative position inside the chroma volume also shifts a bit. Sometimes, it is visually not that notable. But for brand nutsos with their color chips, it will certainly be notable. The hue cannot remain identical, in physical terms.

 

This is one of several reasons pro colorists specify both the screen and the viewing situation for all requests for changes to the image.

 

So it is possible, though a massive pain, to get pretty close to their color chip in a controlled viewing environment on a highly calibrated and profiled monitor.

 

But that does not mean that you will ever see that same, identical color value, on any other screen anywhere. Period. Because ... you can't.

 

It isn't physically possible.

 

Besides, they don't allow for human visual variability. Which is why brand nutsos are simply absurd in reality.

 

As heavily tested, show people a specific set of hue chips ... then within seconds, ask them to choose what they've seen.

 

NO ONE ever chooses the chip they saw. People always choose something a bit more saturated, and in hue, slightly to towards the center of the color circle. Note, that as you go toward the center, there are fewer discrete hues! So hue specificity is not something humans are ever good at.

 

We see color totally as relative to what we think we see, NOT reality. So the brand color chip nutsos are always going for something that is 1) physically impossible with any hardware ever made and 2) not whatever related to actual human vision systems.

 

Good luck explaining this to them ... 


Ah, so you're referring to the Display Color Management button. 

I played around with having that on/off and changed the color profile, in windows, from the correct monitor profile and just assigning sRGB IEC61966-2.1 and both renders turned out the same with display color management turned on/off. 

 I know windows can be set to some funky settings. I have auto color management turned off by the way.

 

It also seems we are still speaking two languages. I am Not matching a color chip. I am Only after trying to get the colors of a video export to match other on screen elements with the same color. I'm not matching footage either. 

 

I'd chalk it up to browser differences as well, but we have the same issue just exporting a video, then importing it right back into premiere. There colors shift. So I'm just trying to understand why, in order to learn how to combat that.

Peru Bob
Community Expert
Community Expert
April 18, 2024
Averdahl
Community Expert
Community Expert
April 18, 2024
quote

I'd like to avoid round tripping through After Effects to change it's color space. Is this possible?


By @dparsons85

 

How does it look if you just upload the ProRes file directly to YouTube? Iow, export as ususal from Premiere Pro to ProRes and then upload that file without mixing in AE to the mix. (ProRes LT is sufficient for YT uploads)

dparsons85
Legend
April 18, 2024

Like all content exported with a color space of Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 it looks too bright, it's harder to notice on bright shots but on dark shots it's extremely noticeable. The only reason to go through After Effects is because, as far as I can tell, Premiere Pro can ONLY export Rec 709 Gamma 2.4 so I need to use After Effects to convert the color space to sRGB Gamma 2.2.

Also, I will not use the compensation LUT that Adobe sugests for two reasons, 1) it actually makes it too dark 2) this doesn't change the color space gamma to 2.2 so it doesn't update the gamma tags of the exported video so if you play your video on anything that does read gamma tags correctly you've essentially broken the gamma because it is no longer what the metadata tags specify.

dparsons85
Legend
April 19, 2024

Hmmm... I'm thinking about this now and just realized that if Media Encoder can't export sRGB then I'm essentially making it Rec 709 again by going though Media Encoder to create the H.264 correct? If so, this is basically like putting the Adobe compensation LUT on a piece of Rec 709 content, in that I've broken the relationship between the gamma and the gamma tags on the H.264. I'm not sure this is something I can get around though and might have to just accept the broken relationship unless anyone has a solution for encoding sRGB from Media Encoder.

Either way, the compensation LUT does not work (it's too dark) and sRGB looks right (even if it's faked by transcoding to H.264/Rec 709 through Media Encoder).

Going through After Effects just seems like the least effecient workflow for this and I would like to find a better solution.