Known Participant

Question

Premiere introduces banding in Exports

Forum|Forum|9 years ago
December 14, 2016
10 replies
27966 views

We've been having this issue for some time... and looking through the forums I see that people have been complaining about this problem as far back as CS6. I should also add that the people commenting in the past have been on both Macs and Windows. So this looks to be an engine problem not a platform-specific issue.

Before you comment, let me ensure you this isn't a color bit-depth setting problem within Premiere itself... this is purely an issue introduced when exporting video out of Premiere regardless of the output files target bit depth.

I can confirm this is STILL an issue under Adobe Premiere CC 2017.

I've also seen subtle color shifting occur when exporting out of Premiere. But I digress back to the original topic.

To preface I should state that each of our guys tasked on attempting to solve this problem in the studio have well over two decades of post-production technical experience.

Source media in the Premiere timeline are ProRes4444 (also tried ProRes422HQ).

Viewing them in Premiere they look perfect. However, the exported file has significant banding introduced into the output file.

We have tried exporting in every single ProRes format available... without any difference in the introduced banding.

We've tried every thing possible we could think of:

1) Setting sequence to maximum color depth

2) Setting sequence to maximum render quality

3) Setting export to maximum quality

4) Disabling metadata at the export

5) Exporting to various tile types and bit depths.

Nothing changes the output.

We've attempted exporting an animation codec version which also has the banding, but barely reduced overall.

HOWEVER... if you IMPORT this project into After Effects and render the timeline from within After Effects.... there isn't any banding at all. So clearly there is a major issue within the export engine that Premiere uses. Our only work around to ensure there isn't banding, as well as not having the color shift I briefly mentioned, is to import the timeline into After Effects and rendering from there.

This is a significant flaw in Premiere that is just mind-boggling that it has existed for at least 4 years at the minimum. Adobe should be putting this problem at the top of their bug fix list for Premiere.

Let me reiterate that our exports from Premiere were set to Maximum bit depth and maximum render quality. And we rendered to ProRes4444 files.... the same format in which the files were sourced... but banding was introduced.

mattyhannon

Participating Frequently

Help! I am also having this same issue. Got a 40min film due for a 10 stop film tour at the major cinemas along the east coast of Aus in a few weeks, and I can't get a clean export of the film to send to colourist.

I am trying to export prores 4444 with quicktime wrapper, using 16-bpc, maximum render quality. My colourist said to make sure to turn off hardware encoding and prores encoding, but there aren't any options for that in the export window? Am I missing somethign here?

The other bizarre thing is that no matter the combo of settings used (eg: trying Prores 4444 XQ), if I export the clips without a grade on them, there is an outrageous amount of. banding in the skies, but if I export the exact same clips from the exact same timeline with a lumetri LUT on it, the exported file is silky smooth and clean with any banding whatsoever??

The first shot was exported with a LUT from Lumetri panel, using Prores 4444. The second shot was exported without a LUT, and then reimported into premiere to have a LUT dropped on it* (to make the issue more obvious) and the banding is terrible as you can see.

*Just to be clear, the banding is present in the exported log file, not just when I drop the lut on it in premiere.

mattyhannon

Participating Frequently

OK - just found the answer on another thread (although it doesn't answer why my graded clips were fine, but the log clips were banded?!):

If anyone else has the same problem, I found the solution to be unchecking "Enable Hardware Accelerated Decoding" in Premiere Pro > Preferences > Media.

mattyhannon

Participating Frequently

OK, spoke too quick.

That unchecking of those two decoding options, DID NOT fic the banding issue...

It looks as bad as ever??!! Why the hell can't I get an export out of Premiere?

Pretty frustrating to finish a beautiful 40min film, be ready to take it to colourist tomorrow, but am battling to get a clean file to work with...

There is no banding within premiere.. only on exports (and only if I don't apply a grade)

Face-C

Participant

Hi,
I'm having similar problems when exporting to MXF Op1 XAVC HD422 50i (this is the requirement for our local TV station and the Premiere workflow is approved and I've using it with previous versions of Premiere with no problems). My files come from Resolve, I've tried both ProRes422HQ and 4444, the ProRes are fine, but after exporting them from Premiere, my files show banding is some shots (in h264 also). These are shots with a smooth blue gradients in the background, banding does NOT appear on similar shots with yellow/orange or purple backgrounds.

The banding is visible in Premiere, both on the computer monitor and on my output 10 buit monitor via a BM UltraStudio min Monitor. I check the files by importing them back into Resolve.
Exporting from Premiere Pro 2022 on a Mac Studio Ultra running on Mac OS 12.3.1 (and files made with Reolve 17.4.6).
Kind regards

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Do you have Max Bit Depth checked on both the sequence settings and the export, and are you setting the export bit depth to 16bpc?

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

Jimpson

Participant

I see that everyone, including myself, is struggling with this strange problem.

I'm sitting on a Macbook Pro M1 Max. 
I work with ProRes LT / 422 / HQ materials from a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 6k pro and have this problem all the time. 
I noticed that the problem was solved when I unchecked this box under the media settings (see screenshot)... 
and to have "Render at maximum depth" checked in the export settings ... (I mostly render H.264)
It seems this is a problem related to accelerated effects / features in Premiere...

In the sequence settings, I find that you only set how the material is to be presented in the timeline. 
I may be wrong .. but it seems like it as the material comes out fine if I have it set correctly in the export settings... 
I hope this helps anyone.

Jim

markw43999941

Participating Frequently

Does anybody know if this issue has ever been dealt with by Adobe engineers? I have tried everything possible and the banding continues to show up on exports out of Premiere Pro no matter what codec, bit depth or if the max render quality box is ticked? Please let me know and thanks in advance.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

What's your media, especially original format/codec? A screengrab dragged onto your reply is always helpful.

Any effects or scaling applied to the clips? What's the sequence settings ... screengrab is good ... and your export settings?

If we can look through the details, maybe we can find something.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

markw43999941

Participating Frequently

Hi Neil,

Thank you very much for responding!

The camera guys in the field said they shoot in "S-log either 1080 or 4K in 4:2:2 10 bit (on board recording XAVC-I)."

There is no scaling or no effects added to the clips. I have attached screengrabs for both the sequence settings and export settings. Let me know if you find anything. I am pretty sure it is probably something I have made a mistake with.

Thank you again Neil!

Mark

Markus Scheibenbauer

Participating Frequently

Still an issue in late 2021. So today I worked with a Prores HQ File from a DJI Inspire X7. Ticked all the boxes. All the settings in Premiere (15.0, Mac) are as they should be. The (extremely heavy) banding occurs already in Premiere when playing back the timeline. It looks like some crappy 0,5 Mbit Export. When I stop the playback, the banding disappears. Banding reappears when exporting. The only way I can eliminate the banding is by exporting some crazy 16 bit Prores 422 HQ. I prefer H264 for deliveries (web). The workaround via AE works but this is a huge PITA. I see the problem started in 2016 or even earlier. This can't be true. Prores is an industry standard. I must me doing something wrong or is it you Adobe?

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Can you share a file that's doing this with others of us here? So we can check and see what we're all getting with it.

I've got some Mavic drone I've been working with and had no issues, so would love to cross-check.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

Markus Scheibenbauer

Participating Frequently

Hey, here is one short clip for you to test: https://we.tl/t-N7KTkjiJqO

I found out, that if I bring my Prores HQ Clips into After FX via dynamic link, the banding disappears. However If I export them as Prores HQ via Media Encoder from After FX and reimport them into Premiere, the banding reappears. Even If I choose the highest settings (16 bit, max bit depth, highest render quality). If I export from After FX via Render Queue in Prores HQ, without ticking any boxes, and reimport it in Premiere, the banding is gone.
What helps as a fast workaround in Premiere: Ignore the banding in premiere. It only appears when playing back a prores hq clip. Export directly from Premiere via Media Encoder Queue or directly (doesnt matter) and choose the highest Prores HQ Settings (422 HQ, max bit depth, 16 bit, max render quality) and after that convert it to h264.
Again: Prores is an industry standard and IMHO shouldnt cause those bugs in premiere.... Prores RAW works fine though...

42Rory

Participant

DWalla,

I may have found a solution to the banding issue and why videos appear discolored when exported.

As for the banding I've found that the following settings have significantly reduced if not eliminated it. I noticed that when I change the settings to the ones below, I actually do see banding in the Export Preview window, but when exported the banding is no longer there.

I've included a screenshot of them, but here they are written out as well:

Format: QuickTime

Preset: Apple Pro Res 422 HQ

*Check "Render at Maximum Depth" Box*

*Change "Depth:" from 8-bpc to 16-bpc* (This is what I've found fixes the banding issues)

I also usually check the "Use Maximum Render Quality" box, but have found it doesn't make a difference with the banding.

I stumbled across this fix while trying out different export settings, so I don't know if it will work for everyone, but I hope it helps. For reference I'm using Premiere Pro CC Version 13.1.2

As for the color shift when things are exported, I don't know if your situation is identical to mine, but I found this forum significantly helped me understand what's going on: Losing Color in Exports

There's a lot of information there, but basically what I gathered from it (and feel free to elaborate on this if I'm wrong as I know I don't fully understand all the variables in this issue) is that there are different color profiles for different programs and softwares, (such as VLC, Quicktime, Premiere, Resolve..etc) as well as different browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Safari). I went to YouTube and clicked on a professional video, opened it in Chrome, Firefox, and Safari, and immediately saw the issue. The color looks different even in a professionally made video in every single browser. Essentially, I've came to the conclusion, that I'm just going to have to live with this. I can't edit to all the browsers, so I've elected to just pick with one and run with it. I found that Firefox looked like my footage on Premiere and VLC, and Chrome looked like my footage on Quicktime. This really isn't a fix so much as an enlightenment, but I hope it helps nonetheless.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

What are your Mercury Acceleration settings in the Project panel? If anything other than "Software Only", Premiere will be using the GPU and working at processing in the bit depth of the clip, and exporting (converting) to the bit depth of the export format/codec chosen which in your case is 10 bit.

WITH an active GPU in use, Max Bit Depth should be superfluous. It should only be necessary when you don't have a GPU in action.

As to general Mac color issues, Apple ain't making it easy for you all. However the ColorSync utility does have settings that can fix this. There's a video by Filmlight development team on the problem l linked to in a couple other threads here.

Apple ... weirdly ... in their option for BT.709 (Rec 709) ONLY applies the camera EOTF, and not the accompanying display EOTF that all other pro apps use according to the defined standard. So the result is an image on screen of roughly 1.95 gamma rather than 2.4, AND ... it's got a near-linear flat shadows area dramatically lifting shadows.

So they discuss the changes you need to make so that the OS will properly work w NCLC tags, and most of your color troubles are solved.

Why Apple doesn't set that correct to begin with I've no clue.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

B

brendana50628361

Participant

This is still a problem in 2020 using Sony FS7 10bit footage. Software only rendering, max bit depth etc. It occurs in both a Cineform and ProRes (16bpc, max bit depth) export, but not visible at all during the edit. Like the original post, I've tried all the settings and had no luck...

M

mstalks

Participant

We experience this exact issue, and likewise solve it by rendering Premiere sequences out of After Effects. We have tried all kinds of bit depth/file format experiments just like DWalla, and are confident that this problem is created as a result of using Premiere's export engine (Media Encoder via Premiere exhibits the same issue).

This issue must be addressed for Premiere to be a viable editing option for us.

HP z840

Intel Xeon E5-2680 v4 @ 2.4GHz (x2)

128 GB RAM

nVidia Quadro M6000 24GB (driver 391.03)

R Neil Haugen

Legend

I can't answer in great specifics, as you've not given any. But ... are you using 8-bit effects in those sequences? Especially if you use them before the last bit, in the processing chain, you are more likely to get this.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

M

mstalks

Participant

Thanks for the reply. I have not included any further details because DWalla's multiple posts state in great detail the problem we are experiencing, and the remedies we have attempted.

stefan_gru

Inspiring

DWalla: I know this thread has been lively (and hopefully helpful) since Dec 2016 but I wonder if you could post a screen shot of what kind of banding you're talking about. Perhaps show the same shot in the Program monitor as as you've output it?

D

DWallaAuthor

Known Participant

This has been going on for longer than December 2016. Just this thread is that old.

I don't have any screenshots at the moment, as we've moved off using PP for any color correction. We use it for editing but do all of our renders out of either AE or Davinci. I do check it every patch or two to see if anything has changed. It's easy to replicate though and it's not an occasional issue. It happens every time.

There are two key problems with PP export:

1) Banding is introduced in the gradients

2) There is a small color-shift that occurs on all exports

These occur regardless of which codec is the source for the media, the sequence settings, or the export settings.

For instance... or first notice of color shift issues is when we were doing a fairly intense color correction piece for a particular client. We noticed that no matter how we got the footage to look on screen, the color would shift on output. This is when we first discovered the AE fix. Import the PP sequence into AE and export and the color would be accurate.

We noticed the banding when working on a firearms piece for a manufacturer. We had produced a piece in 3D and were assembling the elements into the edit in PP. The source footage was all QuickTime ProRes 4444. The sequence was also QuickTime ProRes 4444. And the export settings were identical to the sequence. While watching the edit on screen, everything looked perfect. Both on the display as well as the output monitor. However, when we exported the file, banding showed up in the gradients. It was clearly visible in a side-by-side comparison between the source 3D files and the exported files. Again, we imported the PP project into AE and exported to QuickTime ProRes 4444 and it looked perfect.

If I get some free time I'll see if I can put together some screen shot comparisons.

pimh2105415

Known Participant

And again, i was hoping that it is solved after the latest update, but NO AGAIN. still severe banding on exports. it doesn't matter which render engine i use. I only have the problem when shooting with the canon c300 MK2, XFAVC intra codec that is.

Pim

R Neil Haugen

Legend

File that bug report form again, and ... as with most of their roll-outs, they've got some stuff to work on it seems.

Neil

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

D

DWallaAuthor

Known Participant

This problem has continued to exist since CS6.

Kevin-Monahan

Community Manager

Hi DWalla,

I can verify that another customer is having the issue and we do have a bug filed. If you could file separately with your own observations, it would be enormously helpful. Here's a link to the Bug Report form.

I apologize for this issue. I can understand how frustrating that might be.

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin Monahan - Sr. Community and Engagement Strategist – Adobe Pro Video and Audio

pimh2105415

Known Participant

Hi Kevin, after the recent updates i hoped the banding export issue was resolved, but it still is not. can i expect a solution soon or do i have to find other software to edit with?

thanx, pim

D

DWallaAuthor

Known Participant

For right now the only real editing solutions with clear color-accuracy tools are FCPX and Davinci. Premiere has serious enough issues that I can't recommend using it for anything that requires accurate color or gradients.

John T Smith

Community Expert

Did you read this color banding in Premiere exports ?

D

DWallaAuthor

Known Participant

Yes.... that's actually where I started doing my research. The answer isn't in there. There is clearly an actual issue with their render engine inside Premiere that doesn't exist in After Effects.

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