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denisd888
Inspiring
December 10, 2021
Answered

Proper 50FPS ot 25fps workflow for pro grade delivery

  • December 10, 2021
  • 3 replies
  • 498 views

Hello good people of PP, I am finishing an edit of a feature doc which I need to deliver to a very good posthouse for a grade. As they are very expensive I am having to do the whole conform in Productions on my end, and they will only grade a ProRes 4444 timeline - the film is going into cinema distribution so they need to produce a DCP, so I am a bit nervous about the whole thing. There is quite a bit of slow mo 50fps footage from various cameras and a drone, and I've realised that I am struggling with figuring out the proper workflow for delivering the highest quality ProRes files of that footage. Essentially, I feel like after an export the quality of the slow mo footage (especially from the DJI - which is 4k h264, the rest is mostly Alex Mini ProRes 422) somehow becomes jerkier and less good than what I get from the raw files - which are amazingly smooth - I can't put my finger on it, but it seems like some frames are dropped or something like that... With some of the clips I interpreted them as 25fps, others I left at 50 and just dropped on the timeline, because they didn't need slowing down, and then a few others I interpreted but sped up by unusal values like 130 or 170%. I presume this isn't the right way of doing things and the results of this approach as I said aren't ideal.

 

What is the proper workflow for dealing with 50fps at various speeds in a 25fps timeline? Are you supposed to interpret everything?

 

I would really appreciate responses from some of the forum legends who have experience with this kind of high end delivery stuff!

 

I am on a MacBook Pro, running PP 15.4.1

 

Thank you so much!

 

[Moderator note: title edited for clearer request.]

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer denisd888

Hello Mike and Steve, thank you very much for your insightful replies. As you say, the post house have offloaded the conform onto me so that they have the smallest possible amount of work - as they are giving us a good deal. 

 

The idea is that they get a ProRes file of the film + an edl - and thus avoid working with the original material as much as possible. But I think that as per your suggestions, speaking to them about specific clips and making sure they are fine should be OK. I just want to avoid them having to sort out a number of clips which would then mean they are spending time doing that, rather than actually grading the footage - which is why I want to deliver as good a ProRes as I can.

 

So I am going to interpret everything to 25 and then look into using Optical Flow. I don't really know much about it, but it seems like it could be a useful tool in this case. I have also thought about using Resolve to work with the drone footage - as with some tasks it seems to be cleverer than PP - and then dropping it back into my PP timeline as a ProRes 4444 - but will first try the route you suggest before mucking around with multiple editing softwares.

3 replies

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denisd888AuthorCorrect answer
Inspiring
December 13, 2021

Hello Mike and Steve, thank you very much for your insightful replies. As you say, the post house have offloaded the conform onto me so that they have the smallest possible amount of work - as they are giving us a good deal. 

 

The idea is that they get a ProRes file of the film + an edl - and thus avoid working with the original material as much as possible. But I think that as per your suggestions, speaking to them about specific clips and making sure they are fine should be OK. I just want to avoid them having to sort out a number of clips which would then mean they are spending time doing that, rather than actually grading the footage - which is why I want to deliver as good a ProRes as I can.

 

So I am going to interpret everything to 25 and then look into using Optical Flow. I don't really know much about it, but it seems like it could be a useful tool in this case. I have also thought about using Resolve to work with the drone footage - as with some tasks it seems to be cleverer than PP - and then dropping it back into my PP timeline as a ProRes 4444 - but will first try the route you suggest before mucking around with multiple editing softwares.

S
Steve Griffiths
Inspiring
December 13, 2021

I totally agree with everything Mike has said.

One of my regular jobs as an online editor is to take one hour documentaries from the offline editor, watch them and check for issues like you mention. We output a flattened video file AND provide an XML and EDL as well. The XML allows the colour grader to reference back to the original footage as required, to fix any issues with frame rates, fields, moire etc. 

The EDL is simply so our grader (in Resolve) can detect all the cuts in the program.

 

Of course they need access to the raw footage.

 

I also make notes for the grader with exact timecodes for shots with (potential) issues and as Mike suggests - talk with your grader, ask them what they want and how it should be delivered, they'll likely appreciate your input. They may even have a workflow document they would like you to follow.

 

Drone footage and cadence issues with slomo and 'other' frame rates (i.e. 24/30/50fps) are our #1 issues in grading.

Offline editors often just 'do stuff' that *can* cause issues in the grade. You're doing both an offline and online role, so talk to your grader for clarity.

Though to be fair I have access to a full online suite with broadcast monitoring which with just your Macbook Pro - you don't have. Again, this means you need your grader to help assess the program for any issues.

 

You are asking the right questions!

    Mike Dziennik
    Community Expert
    Mike DziennikCommunity Expert
    Community Expert
    December 10, 2021

    Are they suggesting you send them a single flattened ProRes? Or are you converting your footage to ProRes and giving them a timeline of ProRes clips with handles?

    Conforming timelines (especially docs with various formats) can often be very tricky, and it's no surprise they want to put that burden on you, rather than taking it on themselves...which begs the question: what are you getting for your money? You're paying them...and you're doing the hard work? And if they aren't doing a proper conform/online, they will grade whatever you give them - even if it's not the best is could be. Drone footage particularly is something that can either look great, or can be VERY easily sullied by incorrect handling.

     

    As a general rule for simplicity, I would 'interpret' clips:

    ie. clip was 50fps > interpret as 25fps to cut onto 25fps timeline.

    now, unusual speeds - 130% etc.:

    How these are handled will depend on the content, it may be that some work well using Optical Flow, some won't and will introduce unwanted artifacts.

    This is why you really should get the posthouse to run them by the Online Editor. You don't want to burn-in bad cadence, or artifacts, as there is little to be done to fix it and it will be your fault. 

     

    In my experience, people are very willing to help...if you make it easy for them:

    Put all your drone clips on one layer (I assume your doc is not called "Landscapes from the air"...in which case hopefully there shouldnt be too many). Send it to the post-house with the original files and ask them to check if there are any cadence/resize/artifact issues. If so, they can fix them with the original files and ensure the best quality footage goes through to the grade.

    Remember, if you are going to spend the money to ensure your doc looks as best as it can - don't let it be tainted by some dodgy drone shots which they can easily fix if you give them the files and make it easy for them. I assume they are giving you a deal, hence why they want you to do the conform. That makes sense, happens all the time. But you are paying for their expertise, so ask them if you are in any doubt...even if you have to do the work yourself.

     

     

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