Legend

Question

LOCKED: GPU color range 16-235 vs. 0-255 & Video Limiter to fix washed out export.

Forum|Forum|4 years ago
March 28, 2021
6 replies
13053 views

Hello, I'm having that same color problem it seems everybody in the Adobe world is having, the export is a little bright and washed out. (exporting to bluray for hdtv, H.264) Video looks fine in timeline, washed out after exporting to disc. I'm on a PC, my GPU at 16-235 color range (Nvidia)

I've sifted thru dozens of blogs and videos. And also saw the one here about using the QT Gamma Compensation.cube LUT.

I'm not using Color Management, because my computer monitor is calibrated rec709 2.4 gamma (as per Neil's advice in his video)

Neil said to set my GPU color range to 16-235 for rec709 broadcast, but I've read other blogs stating Premiere uses 0-255.... and Ann likes 0-255 while using a video limiter.

Which do you think is best:

A) GPU 0-255 and use Video Limiter

B) GPU 0-255 , Video Limiter and LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube

C) GPU 16-235 and Video Limiter

D) GPU 16-235, Video Limiter and LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube

E) Or your own configuration _______________________________________.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice.

Letty

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L

Letty2019Author

Legend

I'm just going to keep experimenting until something works. Maybe I'll just manually lower the gamma in the final export to disc or just pop up the black levels,etc.... I guess there is no concrete solution to any of this. Too many configurations, too many opinions and theories. I blame the makers of Adobe for all of this mess. After 20 years they can't get it right and we are forced to experiment, trial and error, blog research, Q&A, so much effort and such a waste of time because it all goes nowhere. There isn't one way to do anything. It's too complex. As for me, back to the drawing board of trial and error.

Good luck to all those people in my shoes, and I'm assuming it's everybody reading this.

Thanks again Adobe for letting all of us try to figure out your expensive program that has no real solutions for any type of real color management, what so ever.

A

Andy 1968

Inspiring

I don't have the same problem as you. What software are you using to create the blu-ray disc? As I stated you need to invest in 3rd party hardware if you are going to be creating blu-ray disks that will be seen on TVs as opposed to computer screens. The same could be said for Avid and Edius.

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Andy 1968

Inspiring

So you are saying in order to get great results color grading for bluray disk, I have to use an old CRT tv monitor?

I don't get it. All the big studio editors edit film on high tech flat screen monitors, and they make great bluray discs.

Please advise,

Thanks,

Letty

You are very very confused. You need to comprehend what is being done. No one is saying you need an old CRT monitor. You need to learn to pay attention and comprehend what is being said and done. Did you some how miss the fact that you can output to an HDTV using the Intensity Shuttle? The 4K Mini Studio (link below) supports NTSC and PAL (CRT TV/Monitors). You know what it also supports? It also supports ATSC, ATSC 3.0 and Digital Cinema (DCI).

You would only use an older CRT TV to capture old 3/4" tapes or Betcam tapes because it is much better to see SD video on the SD TV as opposed to the computer screen or an HDTV. Do you now understand when to use an HDTV VS an old school NTSC monitor or are you still confused?

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudio/techspecs/W-DLUS-11

R Neil Haugen

Legend

No, I'm not using a Decklink card. Straight outta the GPU, in my cast a 2080Ti.

Yea, the card, the monitor (if it has settings) and the apps have to agree. For Nvidia cards, you can tell it to control the video levels (use the Nvidia setting) or not ... (use the application setting). I've actually got that set to use the app's setting now.

Premiere is hard-coded to assume all 'normal' Rec.709 files are 'legal', meaning 16-235. The exceptions being of course the 4:4:4:4 RGB files such as the DPX sequences and one of the DNx variants, a couple others.

If your monitor has an internal setting it should either be for "legal" (16-235) or 'auto'.

Note, this DOES NOT mean that the monitor will show a Rec.709 video within 16-235, just that it 'knows' Rec.709 media will come in at 16-235 and it should remap on the display to 0-255.

In Resolve's color management, nearly everyone should leave the Rec.709 options to 'auto'.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

B

basil1891

Inspiring

If your monitor has an internal setting it should either be for "legal" (16-235) or 'auto'. In my case GPU hdmi-output and monitor hdmi-input both are forced as 0-255. All because 'auto' in the monitor do not recognize full 0-255 range and crushes blacks.

L

Letty2019Author

Legend

Gonna get the x-rite pro, set gpu to 0-255 and recalibrate. My last chance for hope. All the exports from PPro were brighter. (disc project only, not worried about internet players) H.264 & bluray, mpg4, etc... all burned to disc and all looked the same brightness.... but, when I reimported the videos back into PPro, they looked fine, which tells me this might be a gpu color range issue. (currently my gpu is at 16-235)

note: I even calibrated the hdtv to make sure the levels were cool, which they are.

The exports to disc had the gamma cranked up just a bit, making things look brighter than on the timeline.

I'll be back.

chrisw44157881

Inspiring

Additionally, the type of codec you are using determines how premiere interprets it as well.

->see here the complicated chart of "interpretated gamma per software program"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oNa9LjnNQX5ALohgo96BheRRhPgS4qWZyNWv4_Dk98A/edit?usp=sharing

But essentially premiere is hard coded to 0-255. the quicktime lut is only for the gamma from premiere's native 2.4 to 1.96 for quicktime. The legal vs luma depends on how you want to setup your gpu preferences for viewing video outside premiere.

Like I said, that depends on how the codecs are interpreted by various media players. some even let you choose a dropdown like mpc-hc. but essentially, if you can import the file back into premiere and it looks ok, then that's all you can really do there. after that, you're doing the funky chicken burning in gamma/legal conversions to try to get it to look mostly the same for most people.

(Most) is the key here as no one uses the same OS/ web browser. Now, it would be a lot simpler if you were exporting to a known format such as blu-ray or DCP as those have definitive specifications. Some video cloud services such as youtube also read the gamma tag info of the codec(I know resolve let's you burn in a gamma tag into the NACLC metadata.) which is usually 2.2 or 1.96.

Sorry to tell you this but it hasn't really gotten any better over the years. Most users have color management turned off in their web browsers anyway.

L

Letty2019Author

Legend

Nice info, thank you,.... but yes, I'm only concerned about HDTV. (don't care about internet or players) What is your advice for my work flow specs?

Neil says I should keep my video card at 16-235... and you are saying PPro wants 0-255 ? But what about using that LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube ? Is that LUT only for the QuickTime usage?

I just wish there could be a way to get what I see in PPro timelime on my HDTV. I don't even care if the colors don't match 100% perfect, I'm more concerned about the brightness levels. I want the darks and lights to match best as possible.

Round and round I go. Still hard to believe PPro has been around all these years, they still don't have a simple one click color button for standard 709 color. It's insane.

Thanks for your advice on this issue. Neil really knows his stuff, so I want to leave my gpu at 16-235, but can't figure out to use the LUT or not or ??? I didn't want to 'eyeball' it and change the gamma manually like in that video above, but now I'm thinking, what choice is there? That LUT seems to be for quicktimers. round and round.

Does adobe have a position on all this color mumbo jumbo? You'd think they would be able to tell us what to do, after all, it's their software. What a mess.

chrisw44157881

Inspiring

I believe Neil uses an external Decklink device so he travels along different rules. HDTV is 16-235 BT1886. I'd stick to that spec as much as possible imho. For example, if you're using Prores, it is already is interpret by premiere as 16-235. Chrome mostly uses close to 1.96 gamma so that's another area people would use that lut for.

Ok, I just re-read your original post. your monitor may be calibrated but Premiere doesn't "see" the calibration unless it's a LUT or you pushed the calibration into an .icc and turned on Premiere's color management. I thnk you're grading blind right now.

B

basil1891

Inspiring

It can be just this: Why black level difference - HW vs SW export? - Adobe Support Community - 11824047

L

Letty2019Author

Legend

so for my workflow, I should pick another preset, and not use the H.264 for bluray creation?

B

basil1891

Inspiring

Just try Software encoder instead of HW-one

A

Andy 1968

Inspiring

I know a lot of Apple users want their renders to look good on an iMac dislpay using the Quick Time player. It would be better to go to your local library and see what it looks like on a Windows PC. That being said you can compensate for gamma shift and slight color correction of the final output very easy as seen in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7EGNJop_HE

L

Letty2019Author

Legend

Thanks, but he appears to be changing the gamma just by 'eyeballing' it. I was looking for a concrete fix with confirmation of the multiple choices in the main post. Trying to find out if the gpu color range or lut combination would be best. Thanks for the post though.

Best,

Letty

B

basil1891

Inspiring

monitor is calibrated rec709 24.gamma ... set my GPU color range to 16-235 ...

Just a reminder about the obvious, but still - GPU/Monitor levels must correspond to those used for calibration, otherwise all that calibration become irrelevant.

L

Letty2019Author

Legend

sorry, I don't understand. When I calibrated the monitor using x-rite calibration, it never required any settings about the gpu color range. I set the gpu at 16-235 and then calibrated the monitor, rec.709 2.4 gamma. Is that what you mean? sorry, I'm lost.

B

basil1891

Inspiring

I set the gpu at 16-235 and then calibrated the monitor. Ok. Now if you switch GPU output to 0-255 the calibration become irrelevant. You have to to do it again with new settings.

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