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P3 Gamma support? iMac Pro unusable due to gamma shift

Forum|Forum|7 years ago
April 24, 2018
13 replies
13170 views

I found out a few weeks ago that the colors in Premiere doesn't look the same after export.

There's a huge gamma shift, and i later on found out this is due to the P3 Gamma on most Macs later than 2015 that PP can't handle.

So, right now i'm on a $9,000 iMac Pro and i can't use it professionally as Premiere doesn't show what's actually happening in the grade.

I know there's a few workarounds with different LUT's etc, but they're not 100% accurate and it's not really an acceptable workflow after paying loads of money on high end computers and software. It's so damn frustrating. I don't want to switch to FCPX, but i can't deal with this for much longer.

So, is there any real solution on this problem, except getting an external display?
I recently tweeted Adobe about it, so i'm hoping to actually get an answer on this topic.
And hopefully a date for when the support for color management will be out.

I'm 100% sure about the problem as i've been researching and testing everything out. So please avoid claiming that the problem is something else

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer Kevin-Monahan

HI,

A P3 to Rec.709 LUT applied to an adjustment layer over your entire sequence will help you get WYSIWYG color control. You can check the results in VLC (not QuickTime Player). If that does not work for you, please let us know.

As others have said, a broadcast monitor attached to your system is another way to check real world color.

You can also make a feature request for better color management in Premiere Pro here: Premiere Pro: Hot (1271 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps

Regards,
Kevin

R Neil Haugen

Legend

The Apple ColorSync utility is unfortunately not properly setup for Rec.709 standards. It recognizes the sRGB primaries, but applies only the camera transform function part of the two-part (both required!) Rec.709 standard, and does not apply the display transform.

(As you wouldn't be working with a Display-P3 monitor, you would get around much of the other issues.)

I'm not sure if say using the i1 Display Pro puck/software for getting an ICC profile into the OS would completely get around that problem of the partial application of Rec.709. I think it must be mostly workable though, as there seem to be a fair number of people doing it.

Saw a fascinating high-end review of the new XDR display ... and with the same results as all other reviews using proper high-end spectro gear and testing for comparing to proper Grade 1 reference monitors.

Yea, the blooming in the darks is aweful ... totally unusable for full HDR reference work. Can't maintain over 1,000 to 1 contrast as there aren't nearly enough dimming zones and so any lightness somewhere sort of near turns the darking off, and ... blooming occurs.

There were two fascinating bits ... when they used the XDR with Bt(Rec.)709 setting in the OS, they got a very good SDR reference set ... the profile was tight on the sRGB primaries, white point of D65, gamma 2.35, and brightness of 97.8 nits. With a very good deltaE chart also. So ... as an SDR reference monitor, it's probably pretty good. Which is about the price range it's in, actually.

The other ... I've hunted all over for any "brightness" standard for the Apple Display-P3, and in the settings available on that XDR screengrabs of the OS settings options ... was Display P3 (500 nits) ... so yea, the 'standard' setup with a Retina with the Display-P3 is WAY bright for SDR Rec.709 media.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

R Neil Haugen

Legend

So, resurrecting an old thread. What is your basic reasonably-priced setup recommendation for an iMac 2019 4k video editing rig to properly monitor? What external box? What monitor?

That's the trick, isn't it? Figuring out what will work well enough at "a reasonable price".

For the Mac computer, I'm not getting into that ... no expert on the various Mac systems. I'll stick to the monitor side.

For my colorist friends, nothing short of a minimum of a Decklink card ($150/$300) and a Flanders or Eizo reference monitor ... at above $5,000 each ... is good enough for professional work for the monitoring side of things.

I can't justify that as I don't do any broadcast work.

I think ... at a minimum ... running a second monitor for judging the image, that is able to manage well over 100% of sRGB primaries with good screen uniformity (if not at the level of a full reference monitor) is needed. That typically is going to be closer to $1,000USD or so if you're talking say UHD and at least 28" diagonal if not more.

I'm using a BenQ PD2720U and it's doing ok. Others I know use a rather wide array of monitors, but I haven't heard of anything below that near-$1,000 level that actually gets the full RGB primaries and a good black point guaranteed after calibration.

Then the i1 Display Pro puck/software to give a calibration profile for the OS, with ... a check on accuracy. Using LightSpace (you can use the free version for this) and Resolve paired together to run a full color profile giving you the data ... deltaE variance, gamma, all the information to give you some confidence the calibration actually got you close enough to work with.

Next up, using the "decent" monitor mentioned above, and going with an AJA or BlackMagic external LUT box with a calibration run by Lightspace, so it can create the 3D LUT to put into the LUT box and run the monitor. And depending on the unit selectected, can include a card out of the computer, the LUT box, and software ... and that will run over a grand at least if I recall correctly.

But ... you'll have a tighter color management system that completely gets away from the OS ... which the option above this clearly doesn't.

I've got a new rig I'm ordering tomorrow probably ... and am looking at cards & boxes right now myself. Yea, there's options alright. But ... which? ... on any one system ... can vary.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

H

housejacket

Participating Frequently

Thank you, Neil. I’m pretty close to being in your boat needs-wise, so I’ll be interested in hearing what you end up buying. Please update when you make your gear choice(s). As a toe-in-the-water entry, what’s the downside to simply going straight out of my iMac to a decent sRGB monitor?

-Chris

Spen

Inspiring

So here's what I did to fix the problem.

Step 1. Quit Adobe Premier

Step 2. Download a trial version of Final Cut Pro X.

Step 3. Test it on your flashy iMac that uses P3 Gamma.

Step 4. Marvel at how perfect all your colours are and how blisteringly fast everything is.

Step 5. Start saving because your FCP trial will expire in 30 days.

Every time I move away from Adobe software my life gets better.

Sorry Adobe.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Or you could have gone into the Mac ColorSync utility and changed the settings so that your computer actually used the CORRECT settings (outside of FCPx) for video.

Which it is SET not to do so on shipping. Which I doubt is an oversight on Apple's part.

So your computer is set to work wrong by Apple. As the user, you could easily change a couple settings which would make it work correctly with all broadcast standards for video, but you instead blame Adobe and everyone else for what Apple set up for you.

Most charming.

The ColorSync BTU709 setting in Primaries only applies the *camera* EOTF and *not* the standard-specified *display* transform.

Apple, btw, is the ONLY hardware company in the world doing this, btw.

So the result is an effective gamma of 1.96, with a linear section in the shadows that dramatically lifts them. Note: Apple computers are set at the factory for the Apple apps to work properly. Weird, eh?

To get around that you need to change settings for both the Primaries and ... next ColorSync tab of options. They're not named btw to be clear which option you need, but with the correct settings essentially all video players and NLEs will show nearly identical images. The Filmlight development team has a good video demonstration of the issues.

Gee, why would Apple set their computers to an odd partial standard that doesn't apply to their own apps? Can't figure that one out.

And I don't know a single colorist that finds the Mac P3 monitor and display space a useful tool. They all change the settings for working pro video. No matter what app they use.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

Robotfist

Known Participant

Hey Neil,

Is this the Filmlight tutorial you mentioned in your last post? I would like to try to ix my iMac Pro's screen but I am new to this level of calibration.

https://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/training/resources/truelight/QuickTimeColour.php

- Derek

T

TKX_0104

Inspiring

I managed to get close to the colors I wanted.

I connected the setting '' enable display color management ''

and then edited in the lumetri a little of the curve.

I hope it helps somebody!

T

TKX_0104

Inspiring

When are they going to fix it? I thought I was satisfied with the configuration of Slfilmmedia, but I could not work with a project recorded at night

drew beynon

Participant

Just to add another Professional with a frustrating experience using Premiere CC19 and an iMac Pro.
Welcome to any comments. Hoping Adobe see's this and can feel my pain.

System: $13,000 maxed out iMac Pro

Goals: Render out commercial spots for phones and computer monitors for Insta, FB, YouTube, etc. I want to show my projects approvers the work WHILE staying in Premiere and they sit over my shoulder, making any subtle changes they ask for on the fly - and then export an MP4 that matches what they saw.

Display: iMac Pro set to Display P3, second monitor Dell UP2715K set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (But usually just do all work on Display P3)

Footage from: VariCam EVA 1

VariCam Lut applied to Lumetri on an adjustment layer over entire spot, with each clip getting a second lumetri applied to make the shot better for the specific shot. Some shots with skin also have Red Giant Cosmo applied to them too.

Problem: in the first image - on the top right is the program monitor, everything looks great and rich. Then the lower right is the mp4 export using the youtube preset. The wood table color changes, the skin changes. It's not terrible, but its more washed out, and for consumer products I need it to be what I expect it to be! The problem happens with both lumetri and Red Giant Colorista.

The second image is just a screen shot of the YouTube preset settings.

Since my goal is not broadcast right now, the color management check box doesn't apply (right?) Anyway I experimented with it checked and not checked, and the results are the exact same.

A shitty solve has been to open the projects on the slower old trash can mac, and do the color finishing there and export.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

One does expect professionals to learn about the tools used in their craft.

I'm not impressed with the cost of the Mac gear ... only whether or not it is setup to work professionally ... and it isn't. Clearly. Or you wouldn't be having the issue.

P3 is not a widely used color space, it is HUGE compared to most web gear out there. My new monitor has P3 and well, that mode isn't going to be used much for the foreseeable future. And as more P3 and other gear and more actual HDR comes in, making stuff for web use is going to get even dicier, btw.

The other monitor you have is ALSO not set correctly ... you need video sRGB which is not what you've chosen, and you need to calibrate the monitor yourself for Rec.709 and gamma 2.4. NOT the same as still-image sRGB.

"Enable display color management" only tells Pr that you're viewing on some form of P3 monitor, so ... within Pr, it attempts to show a correct video sRGB/Rec.709.gamma2.4 image on it's own "monitors". It has no effect or control of your display or OS whatever.

In your Mac OS, you can go to set the monitor to a space, and from what others have posted here, there is an option for sRGB Rec.709, though I'm not sure what gamma will be used. It will at least be vastly closer than your current setting.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

E

excited_Genie16B8

Legend

P3 is not a widely used color space

It's the DCI standard, what we see when we go to the movies.

Though I don't use that as any kind of argument for using the GUI monitor for grading. I think that's the wrong way to do things. A proper I/O device and monitor should be the target here.

billa73170203

Participant

I recently purchased an iMac Pro and have tried every solution listed above with no resolve, including the most recent from Thiago Kume on Feb. 10, 2019: I've tried the "Enable Display Colour Management" solution with both versions of GPU Acceleration applied, Metal and OpenCL, and the same issue persists.

Footage from different cameras (Canon DSLR, C200, and Panasonic GH5) all show increased contrast on the Premiere timeline, in the scopes and upon export to different extents. It's most prominent and destructive in the DSLR footage, but also inconsistent which makes it impossible for me to work in Premiere.

I'm not sure what else to try at this point. Please help!!

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Have you set your OS display settings to Rec.709/sRGB profile?

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Thank you for the insight Neil. I'm doing my best to navigate through this and hope that I'm not missing something obvious, but as an Adobe user of 15+ years, my expectation is that all of my media will read, display and export equally across Adobe applications. The fact that the same footage is now interpreted completely differently in Premiere and After Effects is totally unacceptable in my opinion.

I've attached a file to clarify what I'm experiencing on my 2017 iMac Pro. The footage was shot on the Canon 5DmkIV using ALL-I compression (.mov). These results are consistent after attempting every proposed solution above.

AfterEffects has several settings for color management. Go into your Project settings dialog ... for Color tab ... what do you have set there?

For matching with Pr it really needs to be set to Rec.709 gamma 2.4. And check to see whether the "scene referred" options helps or ... not.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

H

hexeric

Participant

THIS IS A WORKING FIX!

TAKEN FROM MY WEBSITE, read more there, trying to explain in short here.

it's not really a bug, more of an Apple-feature gone wrong (sounds familiar?). Apple introduced something called ColorSync a longer while back, initially meant for images (print/scan/preview) only. A shorter while back Apple broadened its functionality to cover video as well – to ensure display accuracy across all Apple devices and systems. So, cool, macOS now makes sure your pictures and videos look the same on all (Apple) devices – but there is a catch: only Apple software (well, mostly*) supports this – namely QuickTime, Safari, Final Cut Pro X and QuickLook) – and you will run into lots of troubles with other, non-Apple, apps (e.g. Adobe Premiere Pro, VLC or say Firefox and YouTube), obviously this color sync would not work on a non-Apple hardware product as well, so expect strong shifts in color and gamma in "the real world".

The reason being ColorSync enables certain LUTs for your graphics card in the background on a system level to compensate and shift color+gamma levels accordingly, trying to make the best of your wide gamut, P3 display. It sounds highly advantageous and cool but in the end you just don't see the "real" image, meaning its raw values but shifted ones instead. You want to see a truthful reference image which is certainly possible on those really great Apple (cinema) displays.

The quickest, free solution is easy but kind of secret and not well documented at all! You need a display profile that circumvents ColorSync, tricking your system into displaying raw values only without transforming them! And the only profile (provided by Apple in 2012 by the way) to do so is called HD 709-A. Some people don't have it for some reason even though it's by Apple, so you can download it below (and put it in "User/Library/Color Sync/Profiles")! It will take care of this tedious issue once and for all. In my experience, color and gamma are consistent across all kinds of different systems and hardware setups – yes, even broadcast monitoring/referencing setups. NOT cinema obviously, since the color standard there is DCI P3 in XYZ levels – not RGB (this is how all digital displays work).

https://www.sebastianleitner.com/HD709-A.zip

R Neil Haugen

Legend

THANK YOU!

Very useful information ... very useful.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

H

hexeric

Participant

let me know how it goes!

since there were no video tutorials about this even though the issue has been around for a long while I created one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjLuUR51gE

ryanm6243038

Participant

We are experiencing the same issue. I created a video to show how Adobe Premiere shows the colors on the screen before and after you export it. WATCH VIDEO: iMac Pro adobe premiere color issue

Kindly help us figure this out!

R Neil Haugen

Legend

You've apparently little to no understanding of the use of color spaces in computers, between the OS, the apps, and the monitors. This has been covered both above and ad infinitum on this and other forums.

Your shiny new Mac uses a very non-standard (for broadcast video) color space ... a version of P3. I say a version of P3 as I've seen credible empirical testing by several others that each different size Mac P3 monitor uses a slightly different space, gamma, & calibration settings.

P3 is a very wide gamut space ... "bigger" than A-RGB, far bigger than the standard for broadcast of BT (Rec.) 709, which is sRGB for gamut/space and 2.2/2.4 for gamma. Video material produced according to video standards will show on a P3 in a non-managed app with either less or more contrast, and normally far less saturation.

Which ... is exactly what you are demonstrating.

PrPro operates internally in sRGB/2.4, and will attempt to show all media accordingly though it cannot control the monitor. Resolve ships in 'auto' mode (though it does allow some user settings for matching things) which will do the same. If you took your work a bit farther, and re-imported your exports into both apps, you would see the same color/gamma/saturation you saw in the app before export.

Because that is how the file looks when displayed at least close to sRGB/2.4!

You monitor is outta whack, as is your OS. "But FCPx doesn't do this!"

Well, yea ... Apple has juiced the OS and in-house FCPx to work visually mostly kinda sorta similar (if not actually correct).

Run that signal out through a BlackMagic (necessary for Resolve use), Kona, or AJA external calibrated box to a b-cast capable and calibrated monitor ... you will see color/sat/contrast very close to your in-app views.

You can ... if you know what you are doing ... work with some of the preferences in Resolve to semi-sort-of get around this. Maybe in the version due out sometime soon PrPro will have some user settings to try and get around this.

But basically ... you got a spendy new rig that's built from the ground up outside of broadcast video standards, and you have to use apps & external devices to be able to sort of force it back into standards.

What this leaves you is a bit farther out than you may have realized you were before, at least ... more obviously out of bounds. Without that external calibrated box feeding a properly calibrated monitor you cannot be certain to pass QC for b-cast standards.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

ryanm6243038

Participant

Thanks Neil for this in-depth replay. This is the exactly the answer I was looking for.

Yes- I figured that it had to do with the color spaces within the computer... I am just shocked that this is the case. Almost as if this was intentionally done by Apple to compete with PrPro and Resolve.

Yes there are work arounds, and I can do them... But I think Apple knows, "If you are the type of person that buys this computer... then you are probably just going to end up switching to FCPx instead of using "technical" work arounds." I.E: the person who buys this expensive "shiny new Mac" is the the type of person who will spend more money with Apple, they wants things simplified, dumbed downed and so on... I think you get my point.

Thanks for the help!

Kevin-Monahan

Correct answer

Community Manager

HI,

A P3 to Rec.709 LUT applied to an adjustment layer over your entire sequence will help you get WYSIWYG color control. You can check the results in VLC (not QuickTime Player). If that does not work for you, please let us know.

As others have said, a broadcast monitor attached to your system is another way to check real world color.

You can also make a feature request for better color management in Premiere Pro here: Premiere Pro: Hot (1271 ideas) – Adobe video & audio apps

Regards,
Kevin

Kevin Monahan - Sr. Community and Engagement Strategist – Adobe Pro Video and Audio

D

davids19419774

Known Participant

I'm sure that feature requested has been made a lot in the past few years with no one from Adobe saying if we're ever going to get the request done

R Neil Haugen

Legend

They're a publicly traded company. They take the law that they can't do things to affect the value of stock seriously ... including that they never talk about what's coming until it's here. Kind of a pain, but that's clearly what their legal department insists on.

From the talk at NAB, the engineers are clearly aware how fast HDR/DolbyVision and wider-gamut screens are coming toward usability in broadcast work. This app is clearly built around b-cast standards. The standards are changing. I think it's pretty safe to expect they'll change the app at some point.

And totally safe to predict we won't have a clue until it "drops" at maybe midnight US PST some day. They've been dropping at typically some major event like Adobe MAX (October, this year) or NAB-Vegas (April). IBC in Amsterdam is what ... next week or two? Could be we see something this fall, could be next spring or fall ... or the year after that.

Like waiting for Christmas presents except you don't have a clue when Christmas is ... sigh.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

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