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Jake Burgess
Known Participant
July 2, 2017
Answered

What is the best process to export a master? (Cineform? H.264?)

  • July 2, 2017
  • 2 replies
  • 4790 views

Hello,

So I seem to be in an odd situation. I am shooting and editing a feature film (60+ minutes). I have shot some footage straight off of the Canon C100 Mark II (mp4). I have also used the Atomos Ninja Blade with ProRes HQ (mov).

Meaning, in my sequence for this film I have 2 different codecs. Note: I did not convert them to the same codec, which maybe I should be doing? Possibly using Cineform? Not sure if this is necessary. Would need some answers there.

Moving on. If I am not going to convert both to the same codec: What is the best way to export this film? Is it ProRes, Cineform, H264?

I have tried exporting with Cineform YUV 10 Bit at Quality 4. However the file size is over 50gb. I need to be able to release it online, burn to Blu-Rays and put on external hard drives (or USB sticks).

That kind of file size is ALOT to upload online, too big for Blu-Rays and when I plug my hard drive into a TV, Xbox or Blu-Ray player the codec is not recognisable and I am unable to watch the film back.

I am not sure what the best encoding format is either. YUV 4:2:2, RGB 4:4:4?

H.264 doesn't look so good. There are lots of artifacts (I believe that's what they're called) in the image. I am using a 35mm film grain overlay. So the kind of compression on H.264 makes it almost look smudgy (especially when uploading online).

I am not sure what to do. Should Cineform with the AVI wrapper (instead of MOV) be a smaller file size and be recognisable by whatever I am plugging the hard drive into?

What quality should I be using? Film Scan 1, 2? Should I remove the film grain overlay if I am using film scan? (As I hear whispers that film scan adds some film grain).

I have been struggling with this for a while now and I could really use some help.

I need as little compression as possible (so my grain can still look professional), a small enough file size to fit on Blu-Rays (under 50gb) and a wrapper that most devices can recognise.

I hope I have provided enough information. Thank you so much in advance!

Jake

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer R Neil Haugen

You're in a very normal spot, not at all unusual, but you're not approaching it correctly. So a bit of back-up & think here, on the workflow.

1) Doesn't make any difference in the project itself that your media is using different codecs. Most major projects and even many smaller ones typically do for most people. PrPro handles it.

2) Making a Master means the file you make your deliverables from. That's where you're hitting your problem ... you're not understanding the difference between a Master and a deliverable.

In making the Master, you want every bit of data you can get out of the project, so yes, the file size is going to be rather large per second.

In making deliverables, you match your export from the Master to the needs of the entity/system you are delivering for.

So yes, for the Master export a big file of Cineform 10-bit (even with the file being only 8-bit) with the Quality at least 4 if not 5. Never use a long-GOP interframe codec like H.264 for a Master, unless you really don't care about the quality of that project. Always use Intraframe codecs at high quality settings such as Cineform, DNxHD/R, or ProRes ... some even use the totally loss-less codecs or make DPX sequences if needed.

Then to make a deliverable for any purpose, use either PrPro or Media Encoder to take the Master file and re-export it to the needs of the deliverable. Blu Ray and online use can need a very different fine-tuning of the export. For online, you might even want to try the H.265, and of course test your project uploaded in short test-runs at various bit-rates to see what setting make for adequate quality and least file size.

For BluRay, you'll want to test there to see what bit-rates keep your project on one disc but get maximum quality.

The settings will be different. That's why you make a Master ...

Neil

2 replies

R Neil Haugen
R Neil HaugenCorrect answer
Legend
July 2, 2017

You're in a very normal spot, not at all unusual, but you're not approaching it correctly. So a bit of back-up & think here, on the workflow.

1) Doesn't make any difference in the project itself that your media is using different codecs. Most major projects and even many smaller ones typically do for most people. PrPro handles it.

2) Making a Master means the file you make your deliverables from. That's where you're hitting your problem ... you're not understanding the difference between a Master and a deliverable.

In making the Master, you want every bit of data you can get out of the project, so yes, the file size is going to be rather large per second.

In making deliverables, you match your export from the Master to the needs of the entity/system you are delivering for.

So yes, for the Master export a big file of Cineform 10-bit (even with the file being only 8-bit) with the Quality at least 4 if not 5. Never use a long-GOP interframe codec like H.264 for a Master, unless you really don't care about the quality of that project. Always use Intraframe codecs at high quality settings such as Cineform, DNxHD/R, or ProRes ... some even use the totally loss-less codecs or make DPX sequences if needed.

Then to make a deliverable for any purpose, use either PrPro or Media Encoder to take the Master file and re-export it to the needs of the deliverable. Blu Ray and online use can need a very different fine-tuning of the export. For online, you might even want to try the H.265, and of course test your project uploaded in short test-runs at various bit-rates to see what setting make for adequate quality and least file size.

For BluRay, you'll want to test there to see what bit-rates keep your project on one disc but get maximum quality.

The settings will be different. That's why you make a Master ...

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...
    J
    Jake BurgessAuthor
    Known Participant
    July 3, 2017

    Aww, yes.

    Thank you. I appreciate you explaining the difference for me!

    I have now used DNxHD for my master. As, on my monitor anyways, it seems to look better than Cineform (even though most places online that I've found recommend Cineform). Plus HandBrake can actually recognise it.

    I will use that as my master and then create my deliverables using HandBrake. It seems H.265 is getting a pretty good result. Will experiment with that for online and Blu-Ray use.

    I guess even though my Master is a huge file size, Vimeo still allows for it so maybe if I'm getting lesser quality in my deliverables I could go ahead and just upload that master (over the span of a couple days haha).

    Anyways, thanks again for the information and allowing me to spew my ideas in reply.

    R Neil Haugen
    R Neil Haugen
    Legend
    July 3, 2017

    Sure. This whole video "thing" is far more complicated than it seems on starting into it. I kept trying to force things into simpler ... terms? ... and others with more experience always replied ... no, you just gotta learn a ton more!

    As it turned out, they were ... right. Wow, there's so much to learn, and after you start learning, then some things get simpler just because you know the 20 steps it takes now.

    And any time you've got a deliverable need, if you might possibly EVER need that again, whether in PrPro or Handbrake or whatever ... save that as a preset. Named for logical, easy remembering.

    Neil

    Everyone's mileage always varies ...
    chrisw44157881
    chrisw44157881
    Inspiring
    July 2, 2017

    its a 8 bit camera anyway. also, adding grain adds 20% file size.

    try a 60 sec. h.265 in handbrake. match framerate, set RF to 16, audio AAC 128. . report back with file size and visual quality.

    J
    Jake BurgessAuthor
    Known Participant
    July 2, 2017

    Sorry, I have never used handbrake. Should I export from premiere first? Then use that file in handbrake? If so, what premiere settings should I use? Cineform?

    chrisw44157881
    chrisw44157881
    Inspiring
    July 2, 2017

    correct, for both questions.

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