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areohbee
areohbee
Legend
April 10, 2011
Released

P: A Revolutionary New Masking Technology

  • April 10, 2011
  • 21 replies
  • 708 views

This is one of my highest hopes for Lightroom

First, to get this out of the way:
- U-points are great when they work: but they don't always work, and they have their limitations... - they are not a panacea...

It is my hope that Adobe will tackle the same problem that U-points solve, only do a better job than Nik did, and preferably open the technology for use in both Lightroom and Photoshop proper so it can be used with third party plugins too.

I have a vision for this that could go on for pages, but I'll refrain, and just iterate the purpose.

Often when I look at a photo I think:

Gee: If I could just alter the color of ... in this one region, without altering ... it would be perfect. PS - This is just one of many possible examples.

Put another way:

How to specify the target for various adjustments, without having to explicitly paint the mask.

One of the genius features of the U-points is the "anti-point". Its an intelligent, adaptive technology. You say:

Get stuff like this (by dropping a control point down on stuff you want to adjust)
But not stuff like this (by dropping an anti-control point down on stuff you dont).
This can be iterative, and the final result is (in a best case scenario), exactly what you want targeted is selected for adjustment - with perfectly integrated transitions into the stuff excluded (no seems, no halos, ...)

This is very exciting when it works well, and can sometimes select targets in seconds that could otherwise take several minutes or hours.

Again, I'll spare you a laundry list of shortcomings, and hope it suffices to say:

Adobe can do better, and I hope they will.

I mean, Nik has made a small fortune selling high-priced plugins that bring in double what they would if they didn't support U-point masking.

This is very key technology, and I hope Adobe seizes the day...

PS - Adobe is part way there already. I mean, Lightroom has edge masking technology for the sharpener which in general works very well (I have my personal issues with it, but overall...), and auto-masking technology for the brush, which although convenient, is not seamless, and so is mostly relegated to quick edits, but is not used so much when top quality is desired.

Summary:
------------
Auto-masking, especially if the auto-masking can be user-controlled, bounded, and adjusted manually..., can be a key technology, due to being extremely useful.

Finally:
---------
All develop adjustments would need to be local / mask-able to take full advantage...

Rob

    21 replies

    Rikk Flohr_Photography
    Community Manager
    Rikk Flohr_PhotographyCommunity Manager
    Community Manager
    November 16, 2022

    Max 2021 and Max 2022 releases

    Rikk Flohr: Adobe Photography Org
    H
    hillrg
    Known Participant
    December 23, 2012
    Agreed. I think that is where all the auto mask threads are headed. I just want all the votes in one place.
    areohbee
    areohbeeAuthor
    Legend
    December 23, 2012
    I suppose it could be merged, although the initial idea was about a technology more akin to u-points than masking brush. Granted, if auto-masking brush worked really well, then such u-point-like technology would not be needed as much. Bottom-line: the ability to seamlessly mask regions for adjustment is disparately needed in Lightroom.
    H
    hillrg
    Known Participant
    December 23, 2012
    Another auto mask thread to merge.
    F
    FeedbackCommunityMember
    Inspiring
    November 2, 2012
    To me the perfect Lightroom would be to have all the Nik products inside and not as plug ins especially the U-Point technology.
    After using Capture NX for many years along with Color Efex 3.0 i have just started using 4.2, running without any problems on my desktop Mac Pro.
    Though I have had Lightroom from version 1.0 I have found the Raw conversion to be better with Capture NX, now that I am using the D800 I have finally spent some time setting up some presets that are darn close to the Nikon product.

    So if I could just have the Nik products inside Lightroom it would be a perfect world.

    Royi A
    Royi A
    Inspiring
    October 16, 2011
    I'd like to have an option to define a mask to apply a filter / adjustment by using U - Points / Control Points like in NIK's Software Viveza.

    Those control points are much better than the current local adjustment brush.
    If you could imitate this functionality it could be the killer feature of the next Lightroom / Photoshop.

    In Photoshop this could be the evolution of "Color Range".

    H
    hoffsta1
    Participating Frequently
    July 20, 2011
    you just awoke me to a problem/solution that's been floating around in my sub-concience for a long time. I agree 100%
    areohbee
    areohbeeAuthor
    Legend
    April 23, 2011
    Summary of U-Point Limitations:

    - You can't modify a U-point selection with other masking tools. Examples:
    - You can't select the sky then drop a gradient modifier on it, as example, since gradient is handled as a mask tool, not an adjustment. Actually, you can accomplish this with layers in Photoshop (and Nik plugins), but not NX2.
    (Note: In Nx2 you can tie multiple adjustments to any U-point selection, but not in Photoshop)
    - You can't erase nor erect a boundary around it.

    - You can't influence the decision of what is to be considered "like", or "unlike" what you want selected, except by dropping more +ve and -ve control points, respectively.
    - So in cases where its selecting not enough or too much, you end up dropping tons of control points, and/or your adjustments have a "wavey" look to them (due to point feathering).


    Conclusion: Sometimes U-points do an absolutely perfect or near perfect job of selecting what you want, and usually this can be done in a matter of seconds, not minutes. If its going to take any longer than that, it may not be the right tool for the job.

    My guestimagining of improvements:
    - Integrate U-point-like masks with other mask tools.
    - Allow one to specify likeness considerations:
    - For example: color, edginess/focus/texture, luminosity.


    Bonus ideas: ability to define u-paths, and/or tie U-point-like masking technology to the brush.

    Hopefully these ideas are at least food for thought for Adobe...

    Bottom-line: In my opinion, auto-masking in some U-point-like fashion would be the killer feature for Lightroom editing, especially if it were integrated with other mask tools and apply-able to all adjustments. That and a distraction removal brush (and a few other odds & ends) and Lightroom's develop module would be the strongest of any. As it stands, its one of the weakest, feature-wise.

    PS - Please don't get me wrong - I love Lightroom, and I fully supported Adobe concentrating on image quality in Lr3 (#1 priority, period), putting features on the back burner. But I'm hoping Adobe will concentrate on editing features in Lr4, the u-point-like auto-masking being paramount, as I see it...
    areohbee
    areohbeeAuthor
    Legend
    April 23, 2011
    Quote: "Do you have some examples of what you're talking about?" --- see below...
    areohbee
    areohbeeAuthor
    Legend
    April 23, 2011
    This shows the mask created by a single control point in the blue sky using NX2.

    White means targeted for adjustment, black means not at all, and gray is in-between. Note: I chose a scene with blurry and clean lines so you could see: mask/selection transition is perfect in both cases.

    Note: the selected sky is white. This is case where no anti-control-points would normally be required, although if you really didn't want to alter anything under the sky, a half dozen anti-control-points below would drive all the gray areas to black. Total human time required: less than 1 second, total machine time - way less than one second. Notice: the mask is PERFECT & seamless - adjustments to the sky look just absolutely perfect. Try doing that with Lightroom's masking brush!

    Image is not available



    And here's the original picture:

    Image is not available



    And here it is with an adjustment to darken the sky:

    Image is not available



    There are NO tools in Photoshop nor Lightroom that can make a selection like that, so fast, and so perfectly.

    Nik really hit one out of the park with U-points. I hope Adobe can innovate something even better. If you've never tried U-points, don't. - you'll never be satisfied with Lightroom again (or should I say, until Adobe outdoes Nik here) - and there's no going back - you can't "undo" having experienced U-points.

    Lightroom's brush masking is not even in the same class...
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