P: Ability to invert negative scans to positives (color and black-and-white)

"I don't think Adobe is ignoring you.  I think you didn't make yourself clear in the first place.  At least I wasn't clear at first, for sure."

Steve it sounds like you're still not clear on why a LR/ACR raw file invert function is being requested. We are well aware color negative raw files created with a camera copier setup can be processed with good results using PS/PSE. However, this requires creating a separate RGB image file (PSD, TIFF) using ACR or LR. The resulting file has the camera profile and other settings permanently applied to the image file, which breaks the non-destructive workflow. This RGB file is significantly larger than the original raw file, which also needs to be saved for possible future editing changes.

What is being requested here is a fully non-destructive workflow for processing color negative raw files using only LR or ACR. Inverting the Tone Curve is not a viable solution since it causes the WB and Tone controls to work backwards and behave in a non-linear manner. What's required is an invert function that is applied to the raw data before any other control processing. The objective being to allow editing color and B&W negative raw image files in the same manner as normal camera images.

I don't think Adobe is ignoring you.  I think you didn't make yourself clear in the first place.  At least I wasn't clear at first, for sure. 

Comparing your two images, I can see what the real problem is.  You should not be saving in PSD.  Save it in PDF and you will have a choice of JPEG compression or an uncompressed like TIFF OR the best of both, an adjusted compression in between.   PDF in Adobe is flexible and you won't be using Acrobat or Reader. 

There's no skin of my nose, if you are quite perturbed with Adobe's software and with Adobe, go ahead and search for something you can live with.  No software is perfect as you want it to be.   

However, I think you have not looked over all the choices you have in Photoshop.  For one thing, you have not told me you run Elements or Photoshop, as you keep mentioning only LR which doesn't invert negatives, and we got that message clear now.  But if you used Element with it, and it is cheaper than LR, and like the rest of us professionals use several of Adobe products, you might have what you want. 

And if PDF doesn't do the job for ya, try another format.  There are lots of uncompressed container formats.  I don't suppose you got into those yet?   Those will contain your image in an compressed format yet the image placed inside will be uncompressed while the container format is compressed.  It does save space while you retain the full image too.  Nifty huh?   We use those mostly for videos but they can be used for any (large) image file, and negatives tend to use lots of space, especially when inverted.  Study container formats:  test on Friday.   

If this doesn't do it for ya, then wallow in your anger longer, and find another photo editor, maybe.  You can always save your image in another brand of software in PSD again, and try to open it in LR but don't expect it to be perfect.   And I think "perfect" is what you're trying to get, so hard.  Sure the shadows show but there might be a remedy if you're patient.   

SL   

 

Steve,

I'm fully aware of what Photoshop and Elements can do regarding inverting a negative image, but I use Lightroom Classic to process my RAW images and I'm certainly not interested in buying a dedicated scanner. For my purpose I have a scanner, my DSLR a macro lens and a slide copying attachment, a combination that does a great job.

Lightroom does not have an invert function and that is what has been asked for here for more than half of Lr's life. Sure, there are workarounds that can invert a negative image, like inverting the tone curve or applying a profile, but all suffer from the same problem - reversed or unuseable tone adjustments. These methods are just trying to overcome Lr's basic deficiency, no proper invert tool. There are certainly no tools to properly deal with colour negative film 'scanned' into a RAW image.

Here is a 1:1 comparison of a RAW 'scanned' film negative processed in Lr and the same image processed in Photoshop. On the left is the image processed in Lr using a profile I created (in Photoshop and Camera Raw) and applying some manual develop adjustments. On the right is the same RAW image after opening from Lr into Photoshop, applying the same profile in Camera Raw, saving the result back to Lr as a PSD, then applying White Balance and Auto Tone adjustments. It might be difficult to see clearly in the small image here, but the quality of the two images is chalk and cheese, especially in the shadows, where the PSD image has blocked up almost everything to black. The PSD image is actually quite awful.



So for me, neither Photoshop nor Elements offer a satisfactory solution. The solution is obvious and I would think, not very difficult. Adobe just chooses to remain deaf and silent on the request, and that's very disappointing.

Anthony,

With all the help above, there should be some hints of what to do, but I will say again:  To invert a negative you can do this in LR or Elements too. 

Once you have the negative, click Filer>Adjustments>Invert. 

This will reverse the negative to a positive.  Your positive should respond to any other adjustments in Photoshop (later on that).   Likewise, refer to my answer above and to Todd Shane's answer too. Both of us utilize the Epson v850 scanner.  This scanner gives positives in crisp color and not much needs to be adjusted and all of them will be right-side-up and frontward (label in front).  It takes 12 at a time which is a little work but worth our time. 

Also, I use a 50 slide scanner (3X more expensive) which takes twice as long to scan all 50 but is easier, all 50 slides are negatives, then I invert them to positives.  It's become a routine with a quick zap of the color or fade adjustments, takes less than 2 seconds in a routine.  The 50 slide scanner has a "fog" on each slide as it doesn't scan the best but this can be eliminated and sharpness comes back to a crisp positive with a few quick clicks.  The 50 slide scanner has its faults as it can break down some after 2 years.  It can be fixed for 1/3 of its sale price which is still a little expensive. I am using my old 50 slide scanner for the 5th year as I am getting it refurbished (one time) this year to use for another 3 to 5 years.  We use it for customers at work and its been used for 2000 slides at a time, maybe 3 times now, otherwise, small batches.  Over that scanner, I will recommend the Espon v850 for the best in scans.    

This might be why Adobe has not responded to you.  Elements and LR and Photoshop have always had Filter>Adjustments>Invert for negatives to positives.   When you get used to Photoshop, you will see that the adjustments of the image is fast and easy.  Have a good eye for it so that when its enough quit your adjustments, otherwise, it could run ya stir crazy, don't need to be that perfect.   

Remember all slides are set for a 2X3 foot screens (in the old days) which were in 3000 resolution for the big screen.  Their size will convert to a 4X6 or 5X7 easily.  I scan my photos at only 1000 so they will fit onto a disc better.  The positives converted to a 4X6 at 300 dpi, as follows:  Slides at actual size (1.34" X 0,83") at 1000 dpi, are the SAME SIZE as 4x6 at 300 dpi - they are exactly equal.  Your Photoshop does batch conversions for this.  Look in elements under File>ProcessMutilplePhotos.  In that dialog box, you can convert to 4X6 size AND to 300 dpi size at the same time, AND keep at TIFF (RAW) for photo prints, OR convert from TIFF to JPEG if you want a slide show.  For a slide show, be sure to make them 4X6 size JPEG (at 300 dpi) so the screen will show them big enough.  AND, don't use a slide show software which only sets them to a show and  nothing else.  Instead, just put them info a folder, and in Windows Media Player select the folder and it'll run your photos as a show on screen.  Also, your TV might have a USB port which will run the photos automatically the same way, no slide show software needed and you don't need Windows media player.  The TV has all you need to run it from a flash drive on the TV.  

I have the experience since I have done this for my customers a lot.   
I hope all of this has helped some of you.   

Steve Lehman, mcse   

I've encountered no issues with color or B&W negative film. Noise Reduction works well to reduce grain visibility. Sharpening typically requires higher settings, but also works well. Fine-grain 35mm film shot with a good lens looks a live camera shot. The biggest issue in LR is dust spot and scratch removal. The Spot Removal tool is pretty crude and slow compared to PS's Spot Healing Brush with Content-Aware Type selected.

Event though, all the other sliders are then « inverted ».
I’m not sure how the sharpness and noise reduction algos cope with such images...

Did you remember to make a preset for that curve? That is almost as quick as a button.

Thank you all for the comments on my parallel comment, which was merged to this one.
To address a few points:
1. I use a self-made negative/slide scanner made out of wood, lighting and a canon 7d. Once I upload to the computer, I transfer to my mobile via network drive;
2. Yes, you are able to use the curve to invert the negative into positive. However it would be great to have a quick button (function) to make the process faster. Imagine, I have over 500 negatives. To do this into all via mobile is not smart.
Thanks again.
Regards
Rodnei

Feature to invert negatives. Can do in desktop but not in mobile app.