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Participant
Jan 27, 2012 4:42 AM UTC
Open for Voting

P: Ability to invert negative scans to positives (color and black-and-white)

I would dearly like to see the Lightroom 4 Beta team implement an additional feature in the final release. That feature would be the ability to take a camera+macro lens image of a B&W negative -- essentially a camera-based scan of a negative -- and invert the negative image to a positive image at the beginning of the development process in such a way that the resulting sliders in the LR4 Develop Module would not operate in reverse. As I understand it, this capability exists in Photoshop, but I don't own Photoshop. I do own Photoshop Elements 9, but that program only supports an 8-bit workflow, not 16-bits per channel, and round-tripping between LR & PSE9 requires the reimportation of a TIFF file that is more than twice the size of my NEF RAW files. Since this programming wizardry already exists in Photoshop, I would think that it would be a relatively simple matter to transfer and adapt that code for LR4 -- but then, I'm not a programmer, so what do I know...

I've been digitizing 40-year-old Kodachrome slides from my Peace Corps days in Africa, using a 55mm Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens, coupled to a Nikon ES-1 Slide Copy Attachment, and even on a D300s body, I can get truly excellent results. I can't wait to continue that work using the pending 36 megapixel Nikon D800 body with an upgraded f/2.8 macro lens (mine is the old 55mm f/3.5 design). I really, REALLY want to be able to camera-scan my many B&W negatives without having to generate huge intermediate TIFF files.

You can respond to this request by emailing me, Jeff Kennedy Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to review and consider my request. I LOVE Lightroom 3, and from what I've seen, I'm going to love LR4 even more. I REALLY appreciate the effort that Adobe takes to solicit input from the photographic user community.

BTW, if the feature I request *can't* be implemented right away, could the LR support team provide detailed, interim instructions as to how to use the "backwards" sliders, and in what sequence? That would be very much appreciated. I'm sure many older LR users have considerable analog image collections that they would like to digitize, and doing so in-camera is both 1) of surprisingly high quality, 2) MUCH faster than using flatbed scanners and 3) of much higher quality and resolution than flatbed scan and MUCH cheaper than professional drum scans.

180 replies

stevel24076854
Participating Frequently
Oct 29, 2018 11:15 PM UTC
Anthony,

With all the help above, there should be some hints of what to do, but I will say again:  To invert a negative you can do this in LR or Elements too. 

Once you have the negative, click Filer>Adjustments>Invert. 

This will reverse the negative to a positive.  Your positive should respond to any other adjustments in Photoshop (later on that).   Likewise, refer to my answer above and to Todd Shane's answer too. Both of us utilize the Epson v850 scanner.  This scanner gives positives in crisp color and not much needs to be adjusted and all of them will be right-side-up and frontward (label in front).  It takes 12 at a time which is a little work but worth our time. 

Also, I use a 50 slide scanner (3X more expensive) which takes twice as long to scan all 50 but is easier, all 50 slides are negatives, then I invert them to positives.  It's become a routine with a quick zap of the color or fade adjustments, takes less than 2 seconds in a routine.  The 50 slide scanner has a "fog" on each slide as it doesn't scan the best but this can be eliminated and sharpness comes back to a crisp positive with a few quick clicks.  The 50 slide scanner has its faults as it can break down some after 2 years.  It can be fixed for 1/3 of its sale price which is still a little expensive. I am using my old 50 slide scanner for the 5th year as I am getting it refurbished (one time) this year to use for another 3 to 5 years.  We use it for customers at work and its been used for 2000 slides at a time, maybe 3 times now, otherwise, small batches.  Over that scanner, I will recommend the Espon v850 for the best in scans.    

This might be why Adobe has not responded to you.  Elements and LR and Photoshop have always had Filter>Adjustments>Invert for negatives to positives.   When you get used to Photoshop, you will see that the adjustments of the image is fast and easy.  Have a good eye for it so that when its enough quit your adjustments, otherwise, it could run ya stir crazy, don't need to be that perfect.   

Remember all slides are set for a 2X3 foot screens (in the old days) which were in 3000 resolution for the big screen.  Their size will convert to a 4X6 or 5X7 easily.  I scan my photos at only 1000 so they will fit onto a disc better.  The positives converted to a 4X6 at 300 dpi, as follows:  Slides at actual size (1.34" X 0,83") at 1000 dpi, are the SAME SIZE as 4x6 at 300 dpi - they are exactly equal.  Your Photoshop does batch conversions for this.  Look in elements under File>ProcessMutilplePhotos.  In that dialog box, you can convert to 4X6 size AND to 300 dpi size at the same time, AND keep at TIFF (RAW) for photo prints, OR convert from TIFF to JPEG if you want a slide show.  For a slide show, be sure to make them 4X6 size JPEG (at 300 dpi) so the screen will show them big enough.  AND, don't use a slide show software which only sets them to a show and  nothing else.  Instead, just put them info a folder, and in Windows Media Player select the folder and it'll run your photos as a show on screen.  Also, your TV might have a USB port which will run the photos automatically the same way, no slide show software needed and you don't need Windows media player.  The TV has all you need to run it from a flash drive on the TV.  

I have the experience since I have done this for my customers a lot.   
I hope all of this has helped some of you.   

Steve Lehman, mcse   


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Legend
Oct 29, 2018 7:42 PM UTC



Thanks John,

I have used the process outlined here https://www.iamthejeff.com/post/32/the-best-way-to-color-correct-c-41-negative-film-scans and find it very good. So getting a good result in Photoshop is quite easy. I have used this procedure in Photoshop to create a LUT and then a Camera Raw profile for a few different negative colour film types. The results in Lightroom are reasonable, but with Lr develop adjustments working on the negative, the tone adjustments are reversed and many others cannot be used because they produce wild colour shifts, such as vibrance and saturation. The white balance and auto tone tools are useless too. A bit of manual adjustment of WB works. Here is an example of a DSLR 'scanned' film negative with one of my profiles applied.



And after a bit of adjusting



It would be so much better to have a tool or tool set that could do these steps natively in Lr so that all the develop tools can be used normally on a raw image.

A negative tool has been asked for by users for 7 years now and it is so disappointing that Adobe hasn't even given those users the courtesy of responded to the requests. Not even to say 'No we will not be implementing a negative function'. Just nothing, completely ignored. Like myself, there are many photographers with considerable archives of film negatives who are experimenting with DSLR 'scanning' to digital raw and would dearly love to process them in Lr. It's hardly rocket science, with a good starting point being an invert option coupled with a remove film mask colour cast (not by changing white balance) so that all the Lr develop tools work as normal.

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Todd Shaner
Legend
Aug 5, 2018 1:39 PM UTC
I've encountered no issues with color or B&W negative film. Noise Reduction works well to reduce grain visibility. Sharpening typically requires higher settings, but also works well. Fine-grain 35mm film shot with a good lens looks a live camera shot. The biggest issue in LR is dust spot and scratch removal. The Spot Removal tool is pretty crude and slow compared to PS's Spot Healing Brush with Content-Aware Type selected.
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Antoine HLMN
Inspiring
Aug 5, 2018 7:53 AM UTC
Event though, all the other sliders are then « inverted ».
I’m not sure how the sharpness and noise reduction algos cope with such images...
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JohanElzenga
Community Expert
Community Expert
Jul 31, 2018 2:34 PM UTC
Did you remember to make a preset for that curve? That is almost as quick as a button.
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-- Johan W. Elzenga
Inspiring
Jul 31, 2018 2:15 PM UTC
Thank you all for the comments on my parallel comment, which was merged to this one.
To address a few points:
1. I use a self-made negative/slide scanner made out of wood, lighting and a canon 7d. Once I upload to the computer, I transfer to my mobile via network drive;
2. Yes, you are able to use the curve to invert the negative into positive. However it would be great to have a quick button (function) to make the process faster. Imagine, I have over 500 negatives. To do this into all via mobile is not smart.
Thanks again.
Regards
Rodnei
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Inspiring
Jul 27, 2018 6:13 PM UTC


Feature to invert negatives. Can do in desktop but not in mobile app.
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Todd Shaner
Legend
May 26, 2018 9:12 PM UTC
Since Adobe is the developer and owner of the DNG specification it shouldn't be too difficult for them to implement a raw data invert function that doesn't also invert the LR controls. The primary issue is how to implement this capability AND maintain compatibility. Some more info here: http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/DCPFIles.html

The processing pipe
So, this is how, in vastly simplified form, you process your raw data in context of a DNG Camera Profile, assuming the Forward and Reduction Matrixes are not present (see the specification for more detail😞

    
    1.Linearize, rescale, do black level compensation, clip, etc.
    2.Derive interpolated ColorMatrix and HueSatDelta matrixes based on the color temperature.
    3.Get to an XYZ (absolute color space) via the interpolated ColorMatrix.
    4.Convert to HSV.
    5.Apply the interpolated HueSatDelta mapping table to get new colors.
    6.Convert back to XYZ.
    7.Do your exposure compensation, fill light, etc in whatever color space you want
    8.Convert to HSV, apply the LookTable and ToneCurve, convert back. Or, if I read the spec right, use the LookTable and the ToneCurve as the basis for your adjustment settings
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johnrellis
Legend
May 26, 2018 6:38 PM UTC
"Also, you cannot auto white balance on the inverted negative. It seems like it should work, but the Adobe SDK on profiles said that the profiles are applied at the end of the image rendering process, so the white balance tool is still seeing the non-inverted image."

What if you did the inversion with the profile's HSV look table rather than the RGB LUT?  The SDK documentation says that the HSV look table is applied earlier in the image pipeline, so maybe it's applied before any of the Develop settings.  If so, then you could do white balancing and the sliders wouldn't be inverted?

I only have a fuzzy understanding of how one might create such HSV look tables in this instance, though.
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Todd Shaner
Legend
May 26, 2018 3:39 PM UTC
Also, you cannot auto white balance on the inverted negative. It seems like it should work, but the Adobe SDK on profiles said that the profiles are applied at the end of the image rendering process, so the white balance tool is still seeing the non-inverted image.

Yet another reason for Adobe to do some additional work and fix both.
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