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jeffk5545
Participant
January 27, 2012
Open for Voting

P: Ability to invert negative scans to positives (color and black-and-white)

  • January 27, 2012
  • 167 replies
  • 8261 views

I would dearly like to see the Lightroom 4 Beta team implement an additional feature in the final release. That feature would be the ability to take a camera+macro lens image of a B&W negative -- essentially a camera-based scan of a negative -- and invert the negative image to a positive image at the beginning of the development process in such a way that the resulting sliders in the LR4 Develop Module would not operate in reverse. As I understand it, this capability exists in Photoshop, but I don't own Photoshop. I do own Photoshop Elements 9, but that program only supports an 8-bit workflow, not 16-bits per channel, and round-tripping between LR & PSE9 requires the reimportation of a TIFF file that is more than twice the size of my NEF RAW files. Since this programming wizardry already exists in Photoshop, I would think that it would be a relatively simple matter to transfer and adapt that code for LR4 -- but then, I'm not a programmer, so what do I know...

I've been digitizing 40-year-old Kodachrome slides from my Peace Corps days in Africa, using a 55mm Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens, coupled to a Nikon ES-1 Slide Copy Attachment, and even on a D300s body, I can get truly excellent results. I can't wait to continue that work using the pending 36 megapixel Nikon D800 body with an upgraded f/2.8 macro lens (mine is the old 55mm f/3.5 design). I really, REALLY want to be able to camera-scan my many B&W negatives without having to generate huge intermediate TIFF files.

You can respond to this request by emailing me, Jeff Kennedy Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to review and consider my request. I LOVE Lightroom 3, and from what I've seen, I'm going to love LR4 even more. I REALLY appreciate the effort that Adobe takes to solicit input from the photographic user community.

BTW, if the feature I request *can't* be implemented right away, could the LR support team provide detailed, interim instructions as to how to use the "backwards" sliders, and in what sequence? That would be very much appreciated. I'm sure many older LR users have considerable analog image collections that they would like to digitize, and doing so in-camera is both 1) of surprisingly high quality, 2) MUCH faster than using flatbed scanners and 3) of much higher quality and resolution than flatbed scan and MUCH cheaper than professional drum scans.

    167 replies

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    R
    R Schuster 2
    Participating Frequently
    February 18, 2019
    Since I've given up on this feature ever being added, I've created a workaround of inverting my images before importing into Lightroom.  If you use Photoshop, I'd recommend creating a 'droplet' to make it easy to invert a whole folder full of images at once (Google "Photoshop droplet" to learn how) .  Here's my droplet for inverting b&w jpgs -- https://www.dropbox.com/sh/krxm8llrwq0k2gz/AADMfPZvrAmeKSk9oUcUVTQBa?dl=0 -- feel free to download and use it (I'm on Mac, so I don't know if this file works on Windows).  Drag a folder full of images onto it and it opens each image, inverts and re-saves (overwriting the originals).  (test it on duplicate images to make sure it works for you).  Before you run it, save an image from Photoshop as a JPG and set the quality to the highest quality setting (or you could create a different droplet that would save as a TIFF if you don't want to risk any image degradation due to compression).  This droplet would invert color images as well, but without any color correction -- for that you'd want to create your own droplet with your preferred color correction settings.
    I shoot my negs in JPG as I don't believe the dynamic range of the backlit neg requires shooting RAW.  More about that at my blog post here:  https://shotonfilm.wordpress.com/2017/04/19/35mm-camera-scanning/
    F
    FeedbackCommunityMember
    Inspiring
    February 18, 2019


    I'd really like an option to convert the colors from my self taken negative paper b&w pictures to positive. Now I need to use some other apps for it before using Lightroom and the quality drops dramatically. This phase is essential for that kind of photographing and I'd really appreciate the feature.
    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    October 31, 2018
    "I have a legacy Nikon 5000 scanner, and while it continues to work like a champ, Im worried about what happens when it breaks, and I've wondered whether I'll get significantly better results using a DSLR instead."

    John, from my experience using a Plustek 7600i film scanner and a Canon 5D MKII with Sigma 50mm F2.8 Macro lens the camera capture wins in every respect. This is regardless of using a full raw workflow or ACR/PS TIFF workflow. The key is to use a diffused light source, which reduces the visibility of film grain, scratches, and dust particles without affecting resolution. This makes processing the film images much easier and provides better overall image  quality. Here's an example from my previous post:

    https://d2r1vs3d9006ap.cloudfront.net/s3_images/1724618/32213-15bzjei.jpg?1523663673

    D
    drtonyb
    Legend
    October 31, 2018
    John,

    Here is an attempt to answer that question. Starting with a colour film negative DSLR 'scanned' to a NEF image, I have applied my invert and colour correction profile, shifted the colour temperature by -800K, dropped the highlights to -100 and pushed the shadows to +100 in Lr. The result is the reference image on the left in the image below. I then reset the develop settings, opened in PS, ran an action that inverts, removes the colour cast and auto sets the tone curve (this is what I used to create my ACR/Lr profile), then saved it as a TIFF (16 bit ProPhoto). Back in Lr, I set the colour balance (using the sampling tool), dropped the highlights to -100 and pushed the shadows to +100 on this TIFF, just as I had with the NEF image. The result is on the right.



    Although difficult to see in the small image above, apart from a slight difference in colour balance, the most noticeable differences are in the shadows. In the full size images, the adjusted TIFF has no detail in the shadows. In the NEF image I can see folds in the man's trousers, but in the TIFF, the trousers are just black. Here is a 1:1 zoomed in view of the two images for comparison.



    Pushing highlights and shadows to these limits might appear to be extreme, but it does demonstrate the difference between adjustments in RAW and other image formats.

    RAW processing in Lr still wins hands down for me.




    johnrellis
    johnrellis
    Legend
    October 31, 2018
    I don't view Todd's comments here as mean-spirited. Rather, I find them a constructive contribution to a detailed discussion about  why this feature is being requested. As he invariably does, Todd avoided any ad hominem comments and focused on the objective issues.   These sorts of back-and-forth discussions about features and alternative solutions can be the most effective way to get to a truer understanding of users' needs, their workflows, and possible solutions with and without LR.

    I have a legacy Nikon 5000 scanner, and while it continues to work like a champ, Im worried about what happens when it breaks, and I've wondered whether I'll get significantly better results using a DSLR instead.  I've previously proposed here an alternative LR-only solution for B&W negatives (inverting the tone curve and exporting/re-importing as 16-bit TIFFs). So I'm very interested in how a raw-based workflow might work for me.
    stevel24076854
    stevel24076854
    Participating Frequently
    October 31, 2018
    Todd, this is your third time being mean spirited.  
    Todd Shaner
    Todd Shaner
    Legend
    October 30, 2018
    "I'm not sure how your correcting me helps this guy's software problem."
    Steve, I was actually trying to help you. I'm glad you now understand the request being made here and why it's needed. As they say "DIfferent strokes for different Folks!" You may want to give it try sometime.
    stevel24076854
    stevel24076854
    Participating Frequently
    October 30, 2018
    Todd,

    Anthony said:  "... my DSLR a macro lens and a slide copying attachment, "
    That's not the scan method I use, and it's not a ACR scanner.   
    stevel24076854
    stevel24076854
    Participating Frequently
    October 30, 2018
    Todd,

    He didn't make it clear to me.    My software gets positives like a camera image, so I have not problem with positives using my method.   I don't use the camera-scan method.  And those might be the problem.   

    I have had the greatest respect for your Champion status Todd, as I have praise your answers.   I used to be a Champion but my (Windows) software engineering credentials takes the place of it now, as I left to tend to my company for a long while.  This is your 3rd time to correct me.  I'm not sure how your correcting me helps this guy's software problem.   It was the first time, nothing would be said, as it's very interesting to me.   

    Steve Lehman, mcse   


    D
    drtonyb
    Legend
    October 30, 2018
    Todd,

    Couldn't have put it better. That's precisely why we use Lr with RAW images.
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