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_Peter_Mars_
Participating Frequently
October 31, 2007
Question

Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

  • October 31, 2007
  • 680 replies
  • 62092 views
This problem is getting the best of me.......

After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.

I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).

I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.

The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.

I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?

Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.

Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.

I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated

Thanks,
Pete
    This topic has been closed for replies.

    680 replies

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    _Robert_Railey_
    Participant
    February 10, 2008
    g ballard,
    Thanks for the most informative pages (I just read through your color management section at http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html linked on your other posts) and I finally figured out why several images seemed so "hot" on sites like nytimes.com, while another image right next to it was perfectly balanced. Your advice as to tagging images with the ICC profile for browsers that handle the tags is spot on, and I know for a fact that when I generated those files 5 years ago I was using Adobe RGB instead of sRGB as my color space, so CS3 is working with those values, which accounts for the shift in output.

    I currently have my monitors set as you suggested; 2.2/6500, and use a GretagMacbeth EyeOne Display to calibrate my monitors, so my profiles are accurate for my monitors. The final bit you just laid out in this last post is a great summary of how to get correct color out of the SFW in CS3.

    I do, however, have a question. The rollover images you showed on your site show a difference between the tagged sRGB (or Adobe RGB and Apple RGB) and the untagged images in Safari, but the images don't register as different in Windows XP in Explorer. That being the case, wouldn't it be a good idea to tag the images so that they appear correct in both the ICC profile aware browsers as well as the ones that aren't ICC tag aware? If so, how should I export images - as you indicate above but with the tag instead of without?

    Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us.
    _
    _g_ballard_
    Participating Frequently
    February 10, 2008
    >> the point of my post

    I've been trying to explain that the SFW rules changed in CS3 (that's causing the user problems).

    Only you know what profile to FIRST Assign to your original file.

    Once you THEN Convert it to sRGB, and SFW (strip the profile) in PS6/PS7/CS/CS2/CS3 -- you should get similar color results in all browsers displaying untagged jpegs.

    The problem is likely your original file was not Converted to sRGB back then before it went through SFW and/or your old monitor profile was not close to sRGB or it was just plain off.

    I would not try to out think this issue...simply hardware calibrate to 2.2/6500, Convert to sRGB, then SFW (don't embed ICC profile)...and forget about all the crappy monitors...we can never win that one, but I will see your color properly here...
    _
    _Robert_Railey_
    Participant
    February 10, 2008
    Ann, g ballard,

    I am sorry that you don't understand the point of my post. I have the original files that were used in creating a web site over 5 years ago, the sliced PSD files. When using CS3 on the EXACT same file with the EXACT same settings for the output, the output image is NOTICEABLY more saturated - no matter if I use my MacPro, MacBook or 5 year old iMac to view the output files.

    The colors output by CS3 no longer match the colors generated by previous versions of PhotoShop or ImageReady. My suggestion of a work around was to get past the issues generated by the "new" way that SFW is working.

    By the way, I checked this the old fashioned way - by comparing final output. The output images - when viewed on the web - were different, no matter if I used my neighbors Windows Vista box or my own computers to view the sites that I updated.

    Color management on the web is a joke, no matter what we do on our end; if someone is using a monitor on its factory settings it will probably render our images incorrectly. Things are better with LCD monitors than the old CRTs, but I have had the "pleasure" of looking at my designs butchered on my client's screens due to color shifts that rendered white as some dingy yellow tone.

    Thanks to all who are trying to explain and simplify the ins and outs of color management, it is a difficult task at best!
    A
    Anonymous
    February 9, 2008
    I have the Dell and I don't have any of those color problems except when I go to SFW which is just a little saturated.
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    February 9, 2008
    It just about killed me... seriously, sleepless nights, constant aggravation, I could not stop thinking about it. Nothing could fix the SFW color situation.

    I received the Cinema Display before I returned the Dell and so I had them both running at the same time. That was an exciting and interesting thing to see. Both calibrated and both displaying the same photo for comparison, side by side.

    Almost identical color except the whites on the Dell were just slightly red or pink. The blacks were, or seemed, darker.

    My RGB Grayscale test image showed every step from 255 to 0 (0, 5, 10, 15, etc) on both monitors. Dell showed a slight shift as horizontal viewing angle changed. ACD does not.
    Grays looked slightly redish/greenish on the Dell... perfectly neutral on the ACD

    Certain colors like reds, blues seemed slightly bright or more vivid.

    Over all, the nearly $400 price difference was worth it to me because I just could not live with it.

    Advanced amateurs might love it, and certainly gamers, but photographers and graphics professionals might have issues. I think Dell did a great job actually, considering what you get for $569.

    I really must say here that Dell's customer service was absolutely phenomenal. They listened to my detailed explanation of the situation including calibration and Gamut testing and forum advice and agreed to take it back at no charge! I will buy from Dell in the future... they certainly went above and beyond the call of duty and I am now a very happy camper... although much poorer!
    _
    _g_ballard_
    Participating Frequently
    February 9, 2008
    the default SFW settings changed in CS3 (IMO the geniuses improved it)

    the dell is 'wide gamut' and apparently doesn't handle hardware calibration very well

    it was also discussed here:
    http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=736045#post736045
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    February 9, 2008
    I tried all of this for weeks and finally realized that the 2407wfp-HC will never display the way CS3 intends. I calibrated and re-calibrated and even called pantone and Dell. Pantone sent a new calibrator and Dell finally agreed that this monitor might not be the best choice for what I was trying to do. They took it back and I purchased an Apple Cinema Display. Things are now much better and the difference between sRGB and my native monitor space is very slight, so SFW now looks much better, not perfect, but definitely better.

    I also noticed that the DELL caused pure white to actually be somewhat pink, even with calibration. The calibrated Cinema Display shows absolutely perfectly neutral whites and grays. Interesting.

    I'm much happier now.... however my Kids thought the Dell was superior for gaming... for what it's worth. (Ha!)
    A
    Anonymous
    February 9, 2008
    Robert:

    The way that you are doing this means that NO-ONE except YOU is going to see your images as you intend them to!

    ImageReady was not Color Managed so you saw the results in YOUR monitor space which appears to not to have been properly calibrated.

    Seriously, you really do need to get this Color Management issue under control and I suggest that you start with this Site:

    http://www.gballard.net/nca.html#getagoodscreen
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    February 9, 2008
    As the original poster of this thread, I commend you for reading thru, and understanding this insanity that has taken years off my life I'm sure. I gave up trying to figure this out long ago. I got rid of the Dell 2407wfp-HC and got an Apple 23" Cinema Display, which still shows the saturation increase by the way, but not nearly as noticeably. My original feeling was that something weird was going on with CS3 and I still believe that. I have learned a lot from many of the very experienced users that have commented in this thread. I now completely understand photoshop and how to set the color management variables and what they ALL do and why. As a perfectionist however, I am not 100% convinced that SFW functions properly, or with the same perfection that it did in previous versions. I have also learned that if you look for trouble you will find it, and I'm all done with that... no more web graphics for me. I'm back to pre-press and advertising design for print where I belong.

    Thanks and Good Luck

    Pete
    _
    _Robert_Railey_
    Participant
    February 8, 2008
    I read through this thread with some interest, and tried all of the suggestions. I too have the Dell 2408WFP-HC, which has a larger gamut, and at first I thought it was a problem with the monitor, color profile, etc. However as I have 3 different computers to try this on (MacBook, iMac G4 and MacPro), and a second Samsung monitor on the MacPro running from the same video card I finally came to the conclusion that SFW in CS3 is at fault. This issue just doesn't appear in CS, or CS2, and when I use those apps to create the image it doesn't get the over-saturation treatment.

    I have found a work around that seems to fix the issue, and it doesn't rely on esoteric color management settings (which didn't seem to actually fix the problem by the way).

    Slice and dice your image. Flatten.

    Apply Hue/Saturation adjustment > Saturation -24, Lightness -5 (YMMV)

    Save for web, no special combination of settings.

    Voilá, the colors match the ones produced by ImageReady CS back in 2003, which is how this issue started for me - trying to update a 5 year old site and having the colors look like crap. I think Adobe threw out the Save for Web baby with the ImageReady bath water...
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