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_Peter_Mars_
Participating Frequently
October 31, 2007
Question

Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

  • October 31, 2007
  • 680 replies
  • 62091 views
This problem is getting the best of me.......

After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.

I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).

I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.

The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.

I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?

Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.

Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.

I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated

Thanks,
Pete
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    Anonymous
    November 29, 2007
    I agree Peter, I am seeing a lot of banding in gradients, eg. a very noticeable jump in colour at the border of colours differing by one single RGB number. (This is probably not just because there's a larger difference between R154 and R155 in a wider gamut, but due to inferiorities in the monitor and/or profile.) Perhaps in future monitors will have 16-bit display, and someone will offer system-wide colour management options with more customization.

    I am considering emailing Dell to see what they have to say about my desire to have this monitor operate closer to sRGB. Unless someone here knows of a way to do that. To my still relatively naive mind, it doesn't seem like it shouldn't be so difficult -- seems like it should be a part of the calibration process.

    There are still gaps in my understanding and I have more to learn, but I have learned a ton in this sprawling mega-post.
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 29, 2007
    Ya great... so I'm returning a high color monitor because photoshop is unable to provide a solution for browsers that are unable to deal with this. My frustration is that there is no other solution, but there should be! Things change, things progress forward, people will always holler and scream about it. The world is round I tell you!

    The good news tho is that only people with this monitor or similar, will have trouble viewing untagged sRGB images on the internet.

    I wonder if Adobe could add this button to photoshop (see image below)

    http://www.hostzombie.com/cs3/button.jpg

    [large image replaced with its link]
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    _Peter_Figen_
    Participating Frequently
    November 29, 2007
    This entire thread seems to have perfectly illustrated the theory of unintended consequences. On the one hand, larger monitor gamuts certainly do seem like a good thing, but there is a lot of catching up to do in other areas. Similar things happened to applications like Quark Xpress when we shifted from calibrating to gamma 2.2 from 1.8. The non color managed interface of the earlier versions got too dark and contrasty. There are other problems with high gamut displays in critical graphic use that have not been talked about here. The data path is currently 8 bit through the entire path, and with large gamut displays, combined with the tweaking of the video lookup tables in the graphics card to carry out the monitor calibration, on screen banding can be a real problem, especially in subtle gradients. For the type of work that I do, dealing with on screen artifacts and banding that are not actually in the file, but only a product of the monitor itself, are completely unacceptable. Hopefully, all the issues will be dealt with by the time my three Sony Artisans finally wear out.
    A
    Anonymous
    November 29, 2007
    Peter,

    Then if the images look different between the two then it's the gamut difference issue and not a system level problem. That's good.

    Nice to know they're making great improvements in LCD displays. We can always use more color. Now all the more reason to use color management even with the web.
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 29, 2007
    It's a Samsung s-pva panel
    Here's a quote from ZDnet:

    For what it's worth...

    "The sixth "HC" revision increases the image quality once more by bringing High Colour to the table, meaning the screen is capable of displaying 92 percent of the NTSC colour gamut, compared to the 72-76 percent of old. For the non colour geeks out there, this means that a lot of colours that were being "lost" on older monitors -- that is, being displayed inaccurately -- can now be seen on screen. This should please everyday users and amateur photographers alike, although colour professionals will probably still keep a properly calibrated CRT somewhere for safety."
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 29, 2007
    Tim: I'm using Safari... I'll check Firefox and PS... OK, well it looks the same in FF, but I will say that there is definitely less saturation in Photoshop, the pond photo has no embedded profile, so I assigned sRGB 2.1 upon opening... no pinkish or any color stands out over any other. It does look more natural in PS. Great in fact.

    Not sure how to check for the profile issue... it has been very consistent right from the beginning.

    Don't forget, and I have posted this before, I do see the same type of saturation shift with my G4 and Sony CRT but no where near as severe and barely noticable, it is a saturation increase non the less. Both running PS CS3
    A
    Anonymous
    November 29, 2007
    And I just remembered. There's a way to know for sure what panel you have with the Dell at least it worked on the 2007wfp.

    You may have to get the instructions to access the ROM for the model you have, but the way it worked on the 2007wfp was to turn the display off with the front button and turn it on again while holding down the OSD menu button for about 3 seconds or until the screen is nolonger black and the first color appears and then let go and then hit the + or - button. Do a search on the web. That's how I found these instructions.

    This will access the ROM section of the display at the level the factory used to set up all default settings like hue, saturation and a myriad of other complicated parameters. When this menu appears at the top it should read LG or Samsung and such and such model number.
    A
    Anonymous
    November 29, 2007
    Peter Mars,

    Hang on a second. You said that image I posted looks natural? How can that be since it's sRGB? It's suppose to look overly saturated in nonCM browsers.

    View the image both to compare in PS honoring the tagged sRGB profile and in your nonCM browser. They should look different much the same according to what you've indicated with your own images.

    If they don't you have a bad monitor profile or your system is referencing the wrong profile PS uses to give correct looking CM previews causing you to edit the saturation levels inaccurately. It's happened before even on Windows systems. Something doesn't get written in the write place or clicking doesn't make things stick or something happens at start up to cause things not to load correctly.
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    _Peter_Mars_Author
    Participating Frequently
    November 29, 2007
    Here's a marketing quote from back in June.... "Dell today released the UltraSharp 2407WFP-HC, a new wide color gamut version of the 2407WFP LCD display. The new Dell 2407WFP-HC uses "wide CCFL" technology to provide a wider color gamut.

    The firm claims the new 2407WFP-HC can display 92% of the NTSC color gamut, most LCD displays can only show 40 to 70 percent"

    Make your own decision, I have been working with this monitor for 3 months now and I believe it... everything posted here points to this, and I for one find no other possible explanation. I have repeatedly stated that the colors are amazing and way too much to handle. The point to all this is that the monitor is so far from normal as to make it not suited for some photo processing operations... by todays standards anyway. Images look normal in color, but without tweaking this monitor is beyond bright and vivid! It may be good for many things, but certainly not sRGB web design.

    During this whole process of discovery, I have also discussed the results and limitations of the HueyPro with a color scientist at Pantone/x-rite and received, at no charge, a completely new version of the HueyPro that they claim has improved contrast handling ability, specifically designed for "certain" wide-gamut monitors. I believe verything is fine with the calibrtion and profiling.

    Id keep it if I could afford 2 monitors..... I will gladly accept donations towards this end, thanks.

    "Life is what happens while you're making other plans" - John Lennon
    A
    Anonymous
    November 29, 2007
    Ramon, do you have any suggestions on how to create a profile for these Dells that is is colour accurate, targeted to 2.2 gamma and 6500K AND is closer to sRGB?
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