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Noel Carboni
Noel Carboni
Legend
May 18, 2011
Open for Voting

P: Add a Camera Raw Option to Prevent Writing Back into Input Files

  • May 18, 2011
  • 55 replies
  • 1869 views

Given:

Under some conditions Camera Raw writes data back into (overwrites) its input files. Example: A JPEG file.

Under other conditions Camera Raw maintains this same kind of information in a separate place (e.g., Sidecar XMP or central database). Example: A CR2 or NEF file.

Assuming one uses Camera Raw to open out-of-camera original files as many photographers do, depending on what mode one has captured the images in, Adobe is inconsistent about whether to keep its hands off them or overwrite them... This seems to be because some formats are proprietary and some are well documented. From a programmer's perspective, this makes perfect sense.

Trouble is, from a user's perspective, this behavior cannot be described as anything but inconsistent.

Personally, I do not want my original out-of-camera JPEGs updated/rewritten under any circumstances.

Camera Raw will not touch a proprietary raw file, such as a Canon .CR2 or Nikon .NEF. There's a whole process for remembering settings in a separate database or sidecar XMP files. So far so good.

However, if you open a JPEG, TIFF, or DNG through Camera Raw, data WILL automatically be written back into it to tell another run of Camera Raw in the future what settings you used - without the software ever having warned you it will do so.

It is true that some functions EXPLICITLY rewrite input files. You can ask the software to write new thumbnails back into DNG files, for example. This seems fine - the user has instructed the software to overwrite the file, and the user is in charge, after all.

Overwriting/rewriting an input file without being instructed to do so is NON-INTUITIVE BEHAVIOR for any application. Simply put, I would not expect an input file to be overwritten by Camera Raw.

And we do see that it causes people confusion and surprise from time to time. You may right now be reading this in disbelief. I recommend you go test it for yourself (on a copy of one of your original JPEG files).

The original file being overwritten is a chief reason why I don't configure Photoshop to open my JPEGs through Camera Raw.

Adobe:

Please give those of us who don't want our input files overwritten an option for using the database/XMP sidecar instead in EVERY case.

Thank you.

-Noel

    55 replies

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    R
    RobertJG60
    Participating Frequently
    September 5, 2011
    Because I'm the customer and they do things because of me, not themselves.
    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 5, 2011
    Right on. And yes, TIFF is a smart move if only based on history. TIFFs (an openly documented Adobe owned format) and PSD (not an open format but one still around thanks to Adobe’s longevity) I created in 1990 in Photoshop 1.0.9 and can be opened today in CS5 among other products. The nice thing about DNG is at least there’s a pretty high quality JPEG embedded of the current rendering if so set and desired. And if the history of imaging is any indication, a betting man will probably find DNG will hang in there a long time like TIFF and PSD. But there are no guarantees.

    I have lots of legacy, proprietary image files that are now saved on what amounts to drink coasters. FITs files from Live Picture, whatever Xres saved, whatever College saved etc. Of course I could render them as TIFFs and probably did if the image was important to me. I could do the same with raws but would rather not, considering them digital negs that improve with age. Improve in terms of new technology such as PV 2010 versus 2003. I fully expect to see Adobe improve their raw processing technology so my preference would be to have a raw format that has the best chances of being processed in the future. Again, based on history and having been burned more than once, DNG seems to be the good bet here.
    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    Noel Carboni
    Noel CarboniAuthor
    Legend
    September 5, 2011
    Ah yes, I forgot about the discontinuity in the Apple legacy. Thanks for the info.

    I suppose it's up to whomever has archival data to occasionally review capabilities and convert to a more modern, still-supported format as needed (e.g., when you still DID have PCD or DCS support, you should have converted all your images to TIFF).

    I can see that it probably wouldn't hurt, if sensing an impending discontinuity, to make DNG in addition to keeping your proprietary camera raw files then. But that doesn't mean it has to be right now.
    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 5, 2011
    >Because Adobe dropped support of the PhotoCD import plug-in from their latest products?

    The Plug-in was Kodak’s, it doesn’t run in Lion. The standalone Kodak software for DCS process is even older and requires OS9. So while its not impossible today, it requires hardware and OS’s that I don’t own any longer.

    Even if Adobe did drop support for DNG, its an openly documented format. Anyone who wanted to continue to render that data could. DCS files and probably PCD were not.
    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    Noel Carboni
    Noel CarboniAuthor
    Legend
    September 5, 2011
    Can't open a PCD? Why is that? Because Adobe dropped support of the PhotoCD import plug-in from their latest products? Don't you have an older copy of Photoshop still running (or have done as I have and made the old plug-in work with the latest Photoshop)?

    So the question becomes, when will Adobe drop support for DNGs (or just stop making new software or go out of business)? Less than 10 years from now? Open standard or no, it's not like it's been embraced by anyone else.

    -Noel
    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 5, 2011
    Or in less than 10 years, they might actually want to access the data (which today I can’t do with 10 year old PCD and DCS raws).
    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    R
    RobertJG60
    Participating Frequently
    September 5, 2011
    Yes, despite our requesting actual camera raw files, some photographers have been hoodwinked into adopting dngs on the off chance that some archeologists excavating his studio in a thousand years might want to look at his images.
    Noel Carboni
    Noel CarboniAuthor
    Legend
    September 5, 2011
    Yes, an option that would FORCE the use of external storage for development settings is exactly what I'm requesting in this thread. And this option DOES need to affect all file types that can be opened by the raw processors (Camera Raw / Lightroom).

    For those who seem to want to oppose this request, note that all I am requesting is an OPTION, not a permanent change to the operation of the software. Thus, you get to keep working as you do now, but the products become more useful for people like Robert and me who need to keep it from writing back to original files.

    As far as convincing Adobe goes... What part of "applications shouldn't normally write back to input files" don't you understand? What they're doing now is inconsistent and wrong!

    -Noel
    TheDigitalDog
    TheDigitalDog
    Inspiring
    September 5, 2011
    Now all you have to do is convince Adobe why.
    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
    R
    RobertJG60
    Participating Frequently
    September 5, 2011
    My point has nothing to do with jpgs or tiffs. Only with the fact that lightroom needs to have an option to use xmp files with dng at my discretion, not Adobe's.
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