[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

[Mattrman]

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

[jbjones]

W_J_T wrote:

flaming1 wrote:

the monthly CC subscription price that's a fair amount of money that Adobe is turning away through their ignorance of the market

Many educational institutions feel the same about Adobe's inept decision towards consumers.

It's not just individuals, small business and corporations that think the Creative Cloud is an ignorant and poor decision on Adobe's part.

It would be funny if all the universities around the world that taught both graphics design and computer programming courses, started using and also contributing to all the various open source graphics design software projects.

The programmers could get real world examples of what features the artists felt they needed and at the same time get experience with world wide collaboration techniques.

[Jongware]

[Biggles_Lamb]

An Adobe member of staff posted on another thread that CS6 would continue to be offered for sale, there was nothing about them removing the bugs.

Flaming1, your assumption that 23,500 users x the CC subscription is what Adobe is loosing is incorrect.

Many will not subscribe to the CC without major changes to the system and in my case: - (a) cost (b) no perpetual license purchase option

Unfortunately with the software I primarily use (Premiere) Adobe has a track record of releasing buggy software and I am very wary of them getting it right in the CC system

[W_J_T]

[Jongware] wrote:

In this case "a picture is worth" way more than usual, spot on [Jongware]. I also appreciate your new "InDesign classic" non-cloud avatar.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

flaming1 wrote:

I see the petition has just passed 23,500 - isn't that enough to justify a response from Adobe yet?

They're a huge company, and you know how long it takes to get a decision out of any kind of committee... don't read too much into the fact they haven't responded yet.  It takes extra time to move the Titanic.

[Jeff_Know1]

"Ignore The Naysayers" (YouTube video)

[W_J_T]

Victoria Bampton wrote:

It takes extra time to move the Titanic.

Speaking of which, wasn't that built by a bunch of people who felt it was unsinkable? Sounds just like Adob$ as they forge on at high speed into the night.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

I understand emotions are still running high, but let me ask you a question (anyone, not specifically W_J_T)...

These threads have been running for some time now and they're just repeating the same things over and over again - what are you hoping to achieve?  Is there a question you want answered?  Are you hoping that if you continue making a lot of noise, they'll change their minds?  Would it even make any difference if they did change their minds now?  What's the result you're actually looking for?

It's a completely genuine question - I want to understand.  I don't work for Adobe, so it's no good having a go at me , but I've watched this whole reaction from the sidelines and I'm interested to understand both sides.  Feel free to ignore me though!

[Jeff_Know1]

Victoria Bampton wrote:

Are you hoping that if you continue making a lot of noise, they'll change their minds?  Would it even make any difference if they did change their minds now?  What's the result you're actually looking for?

YES! For crying out loud. How can that not be clear?? Just give us back the option to upgrade to perpetual licenses. If there are people who like the Cloud, great! But do not force it on us like this. Some of us want to skip an upgrade once in a while and have a license that doesn't run out when we stop paying! For me it's a deal breaker no matter how good the software is.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

Jeff_Know1 wrote:

YES! For crying out loud. How can that not be clear?? Just give us back the option to upgrade to perpetual licenses.

That's interesting, thanks.  My doubt on that arose because I'm hearing a lot of people screaming "we've lost trust, never using Adobe software again" etc. and I'm getting the impression that even reverting to perpetual licensing wouldn't satisfy them and they just want to make noise regardless. I think I've put that badly but I can't think of a better way to explain. 

What if they decided they couldn't go back to exactly how things were, but they could offer some kind of opt-out - i.e. pay for subscription for X time and then you can opt-out and keep your current version as a perpetual license?  Same end result, just a different method.  Would that be a reasonable compromise? 

[bitm07]

I second what Jeff said.   Perpetual Licenses.  Don't care if its a version of CS or a cut down version like those posted in the 'Creating something better than Photoshop CC' thread.  Just give us the option to pay and upgrade to something tangible, if and when we want .

[Jeff_Know1]

I think Adobe needs to understand is we are this loud and vocal about it because we want to continue to use Adobe software. If we didn't want to use Adobe software anymore, we wouldn't bother saying the same things over and over and starting petitions! We don't want to leave. And I doubt Adobe wants us to leave either. We just don't want to be stuck with only the Cloud option.

Adobe has to make customers WANT the Cloud because WE would feel it is a wonderful thing to be connected to... But not by just forcing it on us like this and getting rid of perpetual licenses to make sure that happens.

Victoria Bampton wrote:

What if they decided they couldn't go back to exactly how things were, but they could offer some kind of opt-out - i.e. pay for subscription for X time and then you can opt-out and keep your current version as a perpetual license?  Same end result, just a different method.  Would that be a reasonable compromise?

It would all depend on the actual details and how it would be implemented. But the basic premise of that idea sounds excellent.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

Great, let's turn this into a positive productive conversation and start offering up compromises that could work for everyone.

Adobe obviously want to concentrate on bring able to offer more frequent updates, rather than being tied to yearly or less frequent updates, and they can't do that with the old perpetual model, so they're unlikely to go back, but they may be willing to compromise.

They're obviously excited about the value they're offering with the new cloud offerings, but it's difficult for users to get excited about it unless we've used it. So getting us to sign up for their cloud offering would be good for them. I guess that's what they were aiming for with the introductory pricing, but perhaps it was a little too big a jump, whereas an opt out option would give peace of mind. And if the cloud's as good as they think, then we'll carry on paying subscriptions rather than opting out, but users get the peace of mind that we can opt out if we need to, without losing everything.

Anyone want to expand on that theory? Or any other ideas that aren't a return to perpetual licenses but may be an alternative compromise that fits with their aims too?

[BITESBITER]

Did you see my reply to your post!? It is a alternative! And solution for all problems.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

Yep, great, let's keep the conversation rolling. Let's get as many people and as many ideas as possible. I can't promise it'll change, but it's got to stand a better chance than just complaining. In fact, how would you guys feel about us splitting this off into a new thread? We'll aim to keep a really positive tone, which Adobe are more likely to take notice of. Sound good?

[BITESBITER]

This is all you need!

*Upgrade possibility from all versions CS when ever someone likes to.

*A fixed monthly price during the rental time to the perpetual time.

*After  a certain time of rental comes a perpetual licence of the current  version with the possibility to extend for the same rental time (when ever you feel to to the  next perpetual license upgrade) etc. etc.

*A  much lower price for the people that already have a perpetual licence  based on the difference between someone with just one licence for one  app like "Photoshop" or like me with the  "Master Collection" and the  chosen apps not only two choices  "1 app" or "all apps"!

*A flexible choice of apps and prices, that your able to create your own CC collection.

I think that everybody will be happy then.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

Yeah, those are some great suggestions BITESBITER.

[Guest]

They are not offering value it iis a rip off. We choose when to update not them. Adobe sucks

[Jeff_Know1]

Victoria Bampton wrote:

They're obviously excited about the value they're offering with the new cloud offerings, but it's difficult for users to get excited about it unless we've used it. So getting us to sign up for their cloud offering would be good for them.

No no no no no no no. Just no. It's nice that you have an optimistic outlook. But no. Big businesses do not care about their users. We all know this, we are walking $ signs. That's why a Cloud hostage situation is unacceptable and the worst possible case for the end user.

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

Jeff_Know1 wrote:

No no no no no no no. Just no. It's nice that you have an optimistic outlook. But no. Big businesses do not care about their users. We all know this, we are walking $ signs. That's why a Cloud hostage situation is unacceptable and the worst possible case for the end user.

I completely understand you don't want to be held hostage Jeff!  We may well be walking $ signs, but they do have to care to some degree in order to keep those $ signs walking towards them!

I was just suggesting that they want users to sign up for their cloud because they believe it's great value (and because it keeps those $'s going their way of course!). Users want to use their tools but don't want to be tied in/held hostage. So a cloud offering with an opt-out or something similar might satisfy everyone.

[TheCoroner9]

It's pretty obvious and simple what Adobe users want - no subscriptions in CC.

Revert to the previous upgrade model where users were not renting.

The anger coming from users is because of how Adobe is handling this.

If you spend anytime on their Adobe Premiere Pro FB page when someone complains about the CC subscription it is usually

followed by a response similar to "Your concerns are noted. Thank you for sharing them.

We are also listening to an incredible amount of positive feedback from Creative Cloud users." Or links to pro CC arcticles.

Users have to get loud if they want to be heard as Adobe has their heads stuck in the sand.

Adobe is simply seeing the world through rose colored glasses and not via reality.

CC is an easy no purchase for me. And I thought I was a lifelong Adobe customer who always upgraded.

[W_J_T]

Victoria Bampton wrote:

- I want to understand.

- I've watched this whole reaction from the sidelines and I'm interested to understand both sides.

- Anyone want to expand on that theory?

So curious are you a current CC user yourself? Instead of posing continuous questions to others as you have now started, how about you instead explain your own in-depth point of view and feelings towards the "Creative Cloud Only" situation from Adobe? Most of our feelings are pretty clear even though you have stated you wish to understand, by contrast what are yours?

[Victoria Bampton LR Queen]

W_J_T wrote:

So curious are you a current CC user yourself? Instead of posing continuous questions to others as you have now started, how about you instead explain your own in-depth point of view and feelings towards the "Creative Cloud Only" situation from Adobe? Most of our feelings are pretty clear even though you have stated you wish to understand, by contrast what are yours?

I'm sitting on pretty neutral territory, to be honest, but I have nothing to hide. I do have a CC account and perpetual CS6 license. I use the CC account on my 2 main computers, instead of the perpetual license, because it's just so easy. I can download software when I need it, and uninstall it when I need the disc space back, which is more important on my small laptop SSD.  I've used extra software that's included in CC, instead of having to research and buy other programs, for example, I don't often need Dreamweaver so I wouldn't have bought it, but I used it for a couple of months last year, instead of wasting time researching all the other options that are out there.  I'm sure that paid for a month or two of CC in itself!  I've ended up exploring software I wouldn't have considered before, and when I get a little more time, it's on my to do list to learn to use a couple more of them properly. I don't really use the cloud storage because I have Dropbox, but I have my eye on some of those new fonts.

My background is in a small family business, which upgraded every 2 or 3 versions and will be sticking with CS6 indefinitely.  I work alone now, so I understand the concerns about not being tied into ongoing payments. Personally I'm not a fan of renting anything, whether it be houses, cars, cable tv or software. But I do pay subscriptions for things like Dropbox, RescueTime, Crashplan, web space, etc.  If I was using Adobe's Creative Suite/Cloud software for a hobby, I'd be seriously questioning whether CC was right for me, but in a business, I consider it a cost of doing business.  If I'm not earning enough to cover that cost, I'm in the wrong business.  If I was a lorry driver and my only option was to rent a lorry, then I'd rent a lorry, because the money it would earn me would outweigh the cost of renting.  If I'd previously owned a lorry, I probably wouldn't be too happy about it, so I'd complain and then I'd get on with running my business again. 

I've also seen things from the opposite side, as I think I'm now allowed to say I've been involved in testing some of CC. I've seen the difficulties of testing both CS and CC at the same time, which takes away time from developing new features and fixing bugs. I've seen the engineers become more excited about what they're developing instead of stressed about schedules. I've seen teams forced to sit on brilliant new features for months on end, because it wasn't time for another perpetual license upgrade yet. I've seen features pulled from the releases and bugs that couldn't fixed in time for a fixed release schedule. I've seen them focus on fantastic new big features that will sell upgrades, at the expense of little features that would make our workflows so much easier.

So in all honesty, I think they're right that CC is the way forward, but personally I think there needs to be some compromises.  I've already told them what compromises I'd suggest, but I want to know - and I believe they want to know - what compromises would be acceptable to more than just me.

If I had the choice, I'd choose CC as I've seen the benefits, but I'd want the security of an opt-out option.  The reality is I'd be unlikely to ever opt-out until I retired, but it would be reassuring to know it's there.

Does that help?  I really can see it from both sides, and I want to see a compromise that works for everyone.

[Guest]

Like price line the negotiator. Well its my wallet get out! @v

[Lee_Jay]

Victoria Bampton wrote:

So in all honesty, I think they're right that CC is the way forward, but personally I think there needs to be some compromises.  I've already told them what compromises I'd suggest, but I want to know - and I believe they want to know - what compromises would be acceptable to more than just me.

If I had the choice, I'd choose CC as I've seen the benefits, but I'd want the security of an opt-out option.  The reality is I'd be unlikely to ever opt-out until I retired, but it would be reassuring to know it's there.

Does that help?  I really can see it from both sides, and I want to see a compromise that works for everyone.

Victoria, it's really not that complex - Adobe has moved to a software-maintenance contract model just like has been available for decades with tons of software from tons of different companies.  The problem is, Adobe has elected to put a big FAT hitch in their maintenance license - the software stops working if you stop the maintenance.  With all other software that I'm aware of - and I've dealt with software costing as much as $60,000 a seat - if you stop paying you stop getting updates, but the version you have now keeps working.  If you want to start getting updates again, you have to pay some period of back-maintenance to get back on the plan, but in all cases, your licence for the version you have now is perpetual.

Adobe has chosen to re-invent the software maintenance contract wheel, but managed to put a flat spot on one side of the wheel.

If they want to enhance, rather than deflate, the software maintenance contract, CC gives them that opportunity, in two ways:

• They can lower the barrier to entry by allowing you to start using the software without buying the "seat" in the first place.  CC already does this.  However, they'd have to add that after some period of paying the maintenance you now "own" the product in the form of a perpetual licence, and they'd have to add the option to buy that out at any time, including initially.
• They can include cloud services in the maintenance contract.  You could elect to continue paying for maintenance in order to continue receiving the cloud services.  If you stop, you keep the perpetual license to the version you have, but you lose the cloud services that are included in the maintenance contract.

I don't know why Adobe chose to screw up a well-established system in the software industry and thus alienate a huge number of their customers.  It's really a classic case of NIH syndrome and might well end up in textbooks in the future under "what not to do".

If they want to fix this, I don't see why switching to an enhanced version of the software maintenance model would be difficult at all.