[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

[Mattrman]

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

[Pauls Sloss]

MikeChambers wrote:

However, more practically, over time more and more functionality in the desktop app will be based on, and or require access to services made available via Creative Cloud.

... So, in summary, it is not just desktop software anymore.

There is still no stated reason why CC needs to be rental only, and lose it all when you stop renting.

Apple & Microsoft manage vast cloud services without the need to rent a thing. All you have to do is buy an OS. They fund this by offering desirable products to buy. If I don't buy anything from them in the next 5 years, I can still use what I bought.

[Brntoki]

MikeChambers wrote:

Brntoki wrote:

Again, this keeps coming back to what is really motivating Adobe. Every line of reasoning seems suspect at best.

I am curious about what you think is motivating Adobe?

mike chambers

mesh@adobe.com

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 Timothy 6:10

This is a money grab. Nothing more.

Evil? You bet your sweet bipee!

When someone takes the fundamental selling point of something and twists it into an extortionist scheme, that's evil. If Adobe wants to avoid looking evil, they will have to make it completely obvious that future file access isn't realistically possible without paying more. The point of Adobe software is tweakability. Non-destructive layers are fundamental. But that is the very thing that keeps one tied to future payments. Stop paying and you don't only lose the ability to create new teakable and non-desturctively edited files, but lose that advantage for all of your past work (that you already paid for the advantage of future tweaking): Down the drain!

So, we pay initially for the advantage of future tweakability, only to lose the advantage we already paid for if we fail to keep paying.

It's so twisted.

[Brntoki]

MikeChambers wrote:

However, more practically, over time more and more functionality in the desktop app will be based on, and or require access to services made available via Creative Cloud.

mike chambers

mesh@adobe.com

But that isn't a necessity. You're only stating a fact that will result if Adobe goes through with their plan. This isn't an argument for the cloud, just a result that will ensue.

[Jeff_Know1]

I'm pretty sure this will be my last post here, I have other programs to learn now. It's time for me to move on and accept that the people in charge of the decision making at Adobe have lost their minds.

These two posts sum up my opinion without too much ranting:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/5360927#5360927

http://forums.adobe.com/message/5370649#5370649

In May 2009 I purchased a CS4 Design Premium license for myself since I was no longer in a company where the software was provided for me. I upgraded to CS5.5 Design Premium in late 2011.

There was a "Hurry up before the introduction price expires in august 2012" deal to join the Creative Cloud.

So... slightly younger and definitely more naive me joined the Creative Cloud in August 2012, and have now cancelled it in May 2013. This is only a 9 month period. And yet there are so many files I now rely on. I literally went through every single PSD file in this 9 month period and opened them in CS5.5 to see if I could cancel my subscription without losing access to any of my work. There were a couple of problems, but nothing I couldn't fix.

This made me fully aware of the dangers of a subscription only model. There really is no turning back if you subscribe for too long. Right now there is still CS6, but that is it for the future. A couple of years from now it won't be so easy to convert your files so they open up in earlier (perpetual) versions.

It doesn't matter how great Adobe's vision is for the future. It doesn't matter how great the new features are. It doesn't matter how great it is to have access to ALL the programs. All this doesn't matter if you do not provide a fallback mechanism for customers. We need to be able to leave the Cloud with a recent version of the software. Without something like this I simply cannot allow myself to join and be taken hostage for the rest of my life. Adobe cannot be trusted like this.

I purchased CS4 four years ago. I'm only 28 now... with the current economic situation I have decades ahead of me before I can retire. That's a really long time to be chained to Adobe without a safety net to fall back on. Way too long.

Mike Chambers, thank you for your participation in this thread. I can't say I agree with you... but I appreciate you joining in and stating Adobe's new direction and answering questions.

And thanks everybody for fighting against this move by Adobe. In a normal world we wouldn't even have to say these basic things over and over and over.... but hey, it's not a normal world.

Cya,

Jeff.

[Guest]

Adobe is clearly not listening to its customers

As well as voicing your concerns with your wallet some users have complained to

The FTC https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ or your local Better business bureau

In europe the EU competition can be helpful email: comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu


I have always been an advocate for Adobe products. I have personally sold three CS6 suites to colleagues... Adobe always met the needs of its customers... listened to them and this was followed by a continually evovling (awesome) product.

It is a very sad day for the small business and the freelancer who have put Adobe in the position they are today

[bababongatwo]

"...but hey, it's not a normal world."

Seems so. I also made my point behind.

So thanks again to my brush creators last decades (programmers only!)

Bye.

[W_J_T]

bababongatwo wrote:

It seems and feels, like you would like to have a part of the big-cake (all the companies want) called clients data and knowledge about him. You had a look to the others, who were a little bit faster than you (Google, Facebook, Apple...), but were mostly not as radical as you now.

Kind of like this...

Internet giants deny granting government 'direct access' to servers

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/07/us-apple-nsa-idUSBRE9551EU20130607

The newspaper reported that the U.S. National Security Agency and the FBI are "tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies" through a secret program known as PRISM, and extracting massive amounts of data including audio, video, photographs, emails, documents and connection logs. It named nine companies, including Apple, Facebook, Microsoft Corp and Google Inc, as having joined the secret program.

Hmmm... sounds like Adobe's cloud concept, maybe soon they will be on the list also? The list already includes most the companies Adobe seems to want to emulate in many ways.

PS: This made me laugh pretty hard when I read it. -- bababongatwo wrote: Hey, where are you? Spaceship Enterprise? Higher above any cloud?

[jbjones]

W_J_T wrote:

Internet giants deny granting government 'direct access' to servers

Hmmm... sounds like Adobe's cloud concept, maybe soon they will be on the list also? The list already includes most the companies Adobe seems to want to emulate in many ways.

PS: This made me laugh pretty hard when I read it. -- bababongatwo wrote: Hey, where are you? Spaceship Enterprise? Higher above any cloud?

Well I guess if all the big names start jumping on this cloud concept, with few to none left offering stand alone desktop apps, we can assume that there must be someone behind the scenes pulling the strings. Someone, trying to get everything in the cloud for some kind of advanced oppression goal.

[dhl1]

I am curious about what you think is motivating Adobe?

mike chambers

mesh@adobe.com

I think page six of the May 2013 Adobe Investor Handout explains very clearly what is motivating Adobe:

1) Create and monitize the world's content

2) Reimagine the creative process through Creative Cloud to drive seat growth

3) Increase % of recurring revenue

4) Expand into publishing and media monetization

5) Transform athe impact of digital marketing and build $1B SaaS business

The link to this document is here:

http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/investor-relations/PDFs/ADBE-investor-handout-may2013.pdf

Mike, with all due respect, these are Adobe's words to investors. I see nothing here about any benefits to customers.

Adobe has every right to make a profit. But "increasing % of recurring revenue" thu DRM lock-in isn't gonna work. Neither is writing off a significant percentage of your current user base.

I do think there's a very easy solution that will make everyone happy. Offer a loyalty buy-out where after X years and/or X amount of dollars spent, the customer would get an option to freeze their desktop application at its current state. On-line features would revert to free status or disappear. No new updates would be available. If a customer wants new features, they would be free to re-subscribe at any time and the loyalty period would reset.

This is technically trival to implement, it avoids SOX issues because no perpetual copies are ever sold. It is entirely doable, reasonable and fair. It would end this controversy overnight. It's a win for Adobe and a win for customers.

We love Adobe software but please understand the idea of being locked into paying forever in order to access our creative work is simply unacceptable and half-measures won't suffice.

I hope as a customer advocate you will encourage senior management to please consider and implement this very simple solution to the problem millions of your loyal customers have with your new business model.

It's very easy to get us all back on board if you truly are listening and care about your users rather than just Wall Street. Thanks for your consideration.

[toxic_waltz]

dhl1

The leaders at Adobe are BEING FORCED to succumb to the requirements of its investors. Play time is over, but the transitional change has cost Adobe unimaginable damage that can't be put back in the bottle. The only way to wiggle out of this is to effetely change some of the direction they have hard lined to their customers. If not, layoffs in volumes shall come at Adobe and I will put odds on that stock.

[jbjones]

Investors and Unions.

Everyone likes them at first, but they are prone to short sightedness and errors in logic. They are always walking a fine line between selfishness and company health.

I fear that they crossed the line into selfishness this time.

[toxic_waltz]

Selfishness is moot. It's a corporation. The line they crossed is self preservation.  The cloud is very transparent to me in it's current incarnation. Everyone knows change is coming for the company, but no one really knows how much damage this line drawn in the sand shall cut and how deep. So far, I see a lack of understanding of the business model change. That's usually not a positive outcome.

CC = Ciao Ciao

[Danny_Michael]

dhl1 wrote:

It's very easy to get us all back on board if you truly are listening and care about your users rather than just Wall Street.

I for one will never spend another dime on an Adobe product or any products that require Adobe software, such as plugins and training. Adobe has lost my trust and I'm not one to just forget what they did here. You will see nothing change for the next few years regarding Adobe's position. They have stated this as fact, they are commited to their new game plan. They are willing to lose money for the next few years and fully expect to do so. With that said, it's game over. I'm moving on. So far I have found an alternate choice for every Adobe application except for Photoshop. CS6 will have to do for now, but change is coming.

[toxic_waltz]

And I am the poster child for never spending a dime on Adobe products. Never. Ever. I don't plan on throwing that dime in the direction of Adobe for CC because I don't have to.

I will keep my dime safe with me in my pocket no matter what concoction Adobe comes up with.

Lets see -

Nice day out there in the SF Bay Area.  Do I drive the Ferrari or Muscle car this weekend....Hmm...

Tough choice.

[bababongatwo]

>Danny Michael

Great. I´m not alone.
Absolutely agree.

For me they can turn where ever they want to.
My point is made behind.
And already found the same as you: Only PS can not fully be replaced for the moment.
But I hope & think, that competitors will take their choice now.

Till that point CS6 will have to do the job.

----------

CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

[Butch_M]

Danny Michael wrote:

I for one will never spend another dime on an Adobe product or any products that require Adobe software, such as plugins and training. Adobe has lost my trust and I'm not one to just forget what they did here. You will see nothing change for the next few years regarding

Likewise ... I have direct family tree members that survived Valley Forge, Gettysburg, The Siegfried Line, D-Day, The Battle of the Bulge, Battle of Unsan, The Tet Offensive (myself) ... and my own children serving in the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ... I don't think surviving without Adobe products in my workflow will be much of a problem ... sometimes, principle over product has to win out ...

I wish I could have the same support in Adobe products and concept of origin as I did not much more than a month ago ... however, in one fell swoop ... the executives at Adobe decided, that my concerns and well being in the world of imaging software were insignificant (though, I feel my financial investment in same was not) and that I and my investment in Adobe products for over 20 years was a reasonable loss for them in order to achieve their goal.

In the end, I WILL survive, though it won't be because Adobe software made it possible ... it will be because of original ingenuity and entrepreneurship ... and hard work. I really don't care who my ultimate partners are in the process .... but Adobe should be concerned as I could have been an important partner in the process if they took my interests seriously ... I know I am a VERY small fish in a VERY large pond ...but they once thought my participation was important to them ... unfortunately ... I don't fit into their plans any longer ... I am a loss they are willing to risk ...

So ... Mr. Shantanu ... you go ahead and sell hundreds of thousands of your stock shares ... just be assured ... not one cent will ever be contributed by me from this day forward to YOUR financial gain ... while you may profit greatly from your efforts in this manner ... I will no longer be a participant in the activity where you place your own well-being ... ahead of that of my own and countless other customers who saw to it that you had the means to make this move to CC without regard to those who made it possible ...

It is as it awlays has been ... those that make the decisions with other people's money ... then sell out and have no personal investment in the game, profit most ...

[bitm07]

I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[jbjones]

bitm07 wrote:

I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

My thoughts as well. Photoshop CS6 is so feature packed it is likely to be a step above all other competition for at least another version cycle (of the competition). Luckily that also means it probably suffer from lack of upgrades for 3-4 years either.

Other applications in the Master Collection are maybe not quite as much an industry leader and can be replaced more easily with similar competitive applications. In a lot of cases much better, although more expensive, applications. The primary appeal of the "other" applications in the Master Collection are the cross suite integration and budled pricing.

But "perpetual" licensing is the key.  Going subscription is also a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Danny_Michael]

bitm07 wrote:

I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You'll never get that option as Adobe has made it clear no more perpetual licensing. I do stand on principle, unlike so many these days who just fall in line. By all means join the cloud if you feel it's best for you. I'm sure Adobe will be happy to have you for as long as you can pay.

[jbjones]

Danny Michael wrote:

bitm07 wrote:

I would still buy a perpetual licence Adode product that does everything I need.  Over any other Photoshop alternative currently on the market.   For me not buying on principle would feel like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You'll never get that option as Adobe has made it clear no more perpetual licensing. I do stand on principle, unlike so many these days who just fall in line. By all means join the cloud if you feel it's best for you. I'm sure Adobe will be happy to have you for as long as you can pay.

I think bitm07 was refering to other's commments about not buying from Adobe ever again, even if they reversed their decision and offered perpetual license on the Creative Suite.

[bitm07]

You'll never get that option as Adobe has made it clear no more perpetual licensing. I do stand on principle, unlike so many these days who just fall in line. By all means join the cloud if you feel it's best for you. I'm sure Adobe will be happy to have you for as long as you can pay

I am also anti the cloud.  What I mean is that in the unlikely event that Adobe does come up with a product that suits my needs in the future, I would not just dismiss it out of hand just because its from Adobe.  That would not make good business sense to me.  I still hope that some kind of compromise can be reached between Adobe and the thousands of anti cloud protesters..  Something like a perpetual version of the cloud software after a set period of subscription or a perpetually licensed product that falls somewhere between the cloud and Photoshop Element would suit me.

[FastFeet]

bitm07 schrieb:

You'll never get that option as Adobe has made it clear no more perpetual licensing.

Just wanted to chime in with this:

David Wadhwani said during the MAX keynote: ".. but we curently have no plans to add features to Creative Suite."

In an interview the next day VP of Creative Solutions, Winston Hendrickson said: "In his Adobe MAX keynote, David Wadhwani said, 'We have no plans' to continue perpetual licenses. We are not ruling that out in the future."

(http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/08/Adobe-photoshop-cc)

Interesting that the next day Hendrickson already left a door open. I'm sure we will know more after Tuesday when the 2nd quarter numbers are published.

Adobe might have a monopoly about its software, but its customers have a monoply about their money. As less money the customers will give Adobe as quicker their plans will change. I still hope they will soon exchange the directors that are responsible for this mess. Without a change of directors there is no way of building up trust again.

[W_J_T]

Hey, Marcus is back. That is indeed interesting what you pointed out there, falling all over themselves.

It's been a few pages back now but did you ever look at the Adobe site info about change?

[toxic_waltz]

The bottom line....

Adobe is in a really bad predicament.

The software is enough to conduct business and the model of making new features to indirectly force users to upgrade is losing steam. People are not upgrading enough.

The cloud is a new coined business model to offer its customers SAAP software to create a steady flow of income for many reasons. One of which is to keep the company alive. They call it revenant.

The discontinuation of a perpetual licence is the typical short sited executive decision. Adobe is going through the motions based upon collected data from people that are too far removed from their customers.

This is a case of damn if you do and damn if you don't.

The problem with this drastic move to remove a perpetual option upon the introduction of the cloud model is destructive in many ways. Adobe should of made the cloud move move 3 years ago at CS5.5, but hind sight is 20/20.

Now, they are making desperate moves to save the company and destroying long time loyal users confidence. This is a worst case scenario for Adobe and I'm just shaking my head from the corporate stupidity, but do understand how dumb leaders can be with transitional periods. HP is a good example of what not to do with your product.

To have an objective point of view in how Adobe was created is key in understanding the future of said company.

Let me make this loud and clear to Adobe employees.  YOUR JOB is in jeopardy. Shortly after the cloud is released on Monday, and the companies 1/4 business reports come out the following day, YOUR JOB may not be there. I fear huge layoffs coming for Adobe.

Why?

Because the management is lost and does not understand the difference between the cloud and making money.

If they don't reinstate the perpetual option for those that can afford it and the ridiculous inflated price that is required, the future of the company and the quality of its products will degrade.  How much? 

That depends upon how quickly Adobe can restructure their current public relations self destructive path. 

AKA  - relevance.

In closing, Adobe management is a bunch of bloody bozos.

[AnnShelbourne]

Right on target — on all points!

It is not only the jobs of the Adobe staff which are in peril from the arrogant maniacal decisions which have been made by their Board (most likely by a single individual who has steam-rollered his "vision" over everyone else?); but also the livelihoods of millions of others who have built their careers and their industries around their knowledge and skill at using Adobe's software.

A tragedy of untold proportions is unfolding as we watch.