Andy Bay wrote: I guess my questions to you are the following:-You say you need to stay current because of the fast changing industry. I respect that. But do you really feel like Dreamweaver has kept pace with the development of the industry in recent years? |
The CSS designer and visual layout within Dreamweaver has.
They disabled the database connectivity features in DW CC but it can be enabled again easily. Some of the features seem to not work as well but I also have the CS6 version installed where everything database wise works great. Depending on what I am working on I just switch between CC and CS6.
| Why do you like Dreamweaver in the first place (I'm genuinely curious)? There are so many free alternatives available for coding, that if Dreamweaver is your main tool, then doesn't buying the full master collection seem a bit expensive? |
I like Dreamweaver for the visual layout and the CSS designer, which makes creating UI layouts simple(er).
I also use 3rd party software notepad++, an older version of jetbrains PhpStorm and several other paid and free tools.
From the Creative Cloud I use fireworks CS6, photoshop cc, muse cc, audition cc, edge reflow, illustrator cs6, premiere pro.
I don't just create websites and web applications but I also create multimedia content, pdf and mobile ebooks, articles and various other audio / video and interactive content for the web and offline content.
-If you also use Photoshop a lot, then can you name a single must have feature for web development that PS has gotten say during the last 3-4 years? |
I came from CS3 web design suite and I never used Photoshop before I got a hold of CS6 via the creative cloud, even though it is in my CS3 suite. I primarily used Fireworks and paint.net for photo editing and creating graphics for the web.
For me the must have features are the ability to easily remove imperfections and distracting background "stuff." Ability to easily correct distortion in the image, color correct and brighten and bring out detail. The new features in CC allow to do this MUCH MUCH easier and for me it wasn't that difficult to learn to use Photoshop CS6. With the help of youtube and Adobe.tv.
| Which exact features of CS3 are so outdated that it can't be used anymore for web work? |
Dreamweaver CS3 is USELESS for correct visual layout and the CSS support even with plugins is not worth messing with. The code it creates is also GARBAGE. Why should I have to spend all my time rewriting the code the tool creates when all I want to do is visually layout and actually SEE live what I am doing so I don't have to keep refreshing a browser and save my current file in notepad++.
I don't have the CSS codes memorized and I am not going to keep bouncing from tool to tool just to get one bit of information like a color code.
To do rounded corners and shadows with varying level of transparency in a complex layout have good luck trying to figure that out in CS3.
I opened up muse and made a mockup visually. Exported the code and studied the html and then copy pasted the CSS into dreamweaver CC and within minutes had an identical looking layout with html5 validated code, without the extra divs. I also simplified the CSS by hand which did not take that long.
In CS3, it would be easier to uninstall dreamweaver and code by hand in notepad++ then even try to do that.
I do not use Dreamweaver as a code editor for that I use notepad++, it is easier. But working with CSS layouts visually in dreamweaver and the auto finding of dependant files dreamweaver CC wins.
For example I was working with a CSS layout I designed and I was trying to figure out how to clear fix floated items so they were contained inside of the layout. Visually I saw an out of place div element at a glance that I NEVER would of noticed just looking at the code. Well, not as quick as seconds vs hours or days.
CS6 and CC of dreamweaver the code generated is actually good.
Fireworks CS3, don't even begin to use it for html or exporting css. It can sort of export css but it is not very good and the html is all weird.
For Photoshop comparing the CS3 and CS6 / CC version is like compaing elephants and the moon. I never use photoshop for html design, I do use it to quickly resize or downsample an image which usually happens round trip from another tool such as muse.
It is a HUGE time saver to very quickly mockup layouts in Muse and then export the CSS and html into dreamweaver to tweak on it and visually get feedback as I am doing it. I very quickly converted a non-dynamic layout, no animations or paralax stuff, to a responsive design with much simplified html.
Though I didn't really have to do a whole lot just remove some extra divs, change some from div to html5 tags / elements and rename some of the id's and classes so I know at a glance of the name what it is.
AND Adobe is kind enough to add a very nice clear fix that solves the floated element problem.
I didn't have to do anything there other than switch the associated elements to the name of my containers. No need for adding "clearfix" to the classes in my html it is just auto done in the css.
Visually looking at the exported MUSE version and my responsive layout you can't tell the difference. Except on resize mine auto adjusts for best display of content. Looking at the code the two are not the same but it really did not take very long to convert the code. It is not like it went from table based layout to html5. It went from mostly divs layout to html5 elements and tag names. What, couple minutes if that to do?
Forms is much easier to design and layout / style in DW CC. The html5 auto complete is nice.
I do have other paid software that is a MUCH better editor than DW, any version. The reason I comeback and use DW is for the easy visual layout feature. To see what I am doing as I do it you can't really quantify the time savings to that.
phpStorm has an add in to chrome that allows you to do similar but then you have TWO programs open and you have to switch between the two. In Dreamweaver it is just there in the tool and it works.
CS3 is no longer supported, finding plugins that were available 5 years ago are very hard to find now and many developers stopped writing addons that work with CS3. I am not so sure CS4 is the same and CS5 is beginning to become depreciated as well but there is still development from 3rd parties on it.
Depending on what it is you are doing, photoshop CS3 works for some basic to moderate photo editing. Fireworks CS3 was one of my main graphics programs I used but CS6 works better. Both versions have the same tools but CS6 has a few more that are nice.
Though using the full spectrum of tools and options in Photoshop CS6 / CC is night and day compared to Fireworks. But I still use it.
There was no Audio tool in the web version of CS3, I used Audacity and an older version of Sony's soundforge which is not in development anymore or at least the version I have in a box somewhere in the basement. I don't use it.
Audition CC has jumped quite a bit in usability from CS6. Soundbooth, I think it was called back in CS3 days probably can't be compared much with Audition CC. I do a lot of audio editing as well and removing background noises is so much easier in Audition CS6 from audacity it is not comparable. Audition CC is even easier and settings just for that alone have been simplified and been expanded upon. Makes my life easier.
As you see I use many of the tools and do a lot more than JUST webdesign. So for me I get much more out of it than just someone that would use Dreamweaver alone.
Though to focus on your question of if I were to only be focused on dreamweaver and photoshop, would the cloud subscription be worth it or would the CS6 master collection be worth the price?
I would probably, if I wanted the features just pay the individual product subscription for photoshop and dreamweaver instead of the full cloud.
If I were sitting with notepad++ and refreshing browsers would I spend the money JUST for dreamweaver?
Below CS6, I would not.
I would probably look at other options before dreamweaver, honestly. There are MUCH better editors out there and for less than $100. If it wasn't for the CSS Designer I wouldn't use it at all actually.
BUT, you see I have access to the cloud and along with that I also get dreamweaver so because I already have access to it, why not use it along side what I already am using.
I am more interested in MUSE and Edge Reflow than dreamweaver only for the quick mockups and the ONLY reason I use dreamweaver is for the CSS Designer and visually seeing what I am doing when working with the CSS.
I go from visual only designing tools to coding WITH visual feedback in dreamweaver and then just for coding I use notepad++. That is my current work flow when it comes to web design.
Paint.Net is a good option as replacement for a web photo and graphics editor but as a Photo editor for print or family photo's etc.. it kind of sucks, though they have a lot of plugins I just find that tool more suited for web only work. Fireworks is more than capable of my web imagery. Photoshop CS6 and CC is turning into my main go to program for photo's but Fireworks wins out for quick web image creation / editing.
I have looked at Corel and other competitors but none of their software really compares to what Adobe has. And I just can't get over $50.00 a month I get thousands of dollars in software I can use and make money with and do whatever I want.
You want to know the reason I started looking at Adobe again after I swore off the company and told them to go screw themselves years ago?
The mobile development tools and in the front developing of cutting edge web development. They not just know the market they know how to code for the new stuff coming out and are on the pulse of what is going on from standards compliant coding and developing.
I knew NOTHING about how to code for mobile and I did not know what a media query was. I didn't want to have to think about it, I just wanted to make sites and have them work in everything that people would use to view them. I did not want to have to spend months learning the mobile stuff, I just wanted to do it once and it just worked. So I went looking for options and that is when Creative Cloud first came out.
Muse was being released in preview and then Reflow came out in preview or I just noticed it at the sametime. I looked at Dreamweaver and saw the CSS stuff was much much improved and the code that was generated was not crap.
Then I looked at the development that went on in the other tools and then looked at what the price was for the cloud. It was a no brainer for me to subscribe and I did.
I don't give a crap about the politics and have no problem telling adobes development teams what I think and why I think that way. They even listened once or twice and mostly just gave it back as much as I gave it to them but in the process I understand why they do things the way they do it.
I thought it was stupid until I hit a specific situation where the way they thought actually worked and saved me some time. I backed off calling them all bone heads at that point and just paid attention to why things work the way they do and when possible I customize the tools to work how i want or I go and switch to notepad++ or one of the other tools I work with. No big deal.
I don't like web only software, I don't like being told how to do something or being forced to use cloud only storage. I work the way I want to and I learn very quickly, my learning curves are shorter and also longer than some, depending. For many years I hated Adobe with a passion, swore off them after CS3 and I saw CS4 and CS5 as frankenstein monster hodge podge be everything to everyone. I went back to hand coding sites and php.
Then I tried and purchased competitor products and they too had issues and rigid thinking in how they do things, MOST customers there complained also. Wasn't isoloated to one company but every company and even the open source projects.
I missed just being able to visually edit and seeing what I was doing live. Working in the browser editors and plugins didn't do a whole lot for me. I still had to go back and change my code so I was tweaking in one place and having to make the same change again somewhere else. Didn't like the duplicating efforts.
Then mobile took a big turn about a year ago with MUCH more pushing in that direction than even in 2009 and 2010. I ignored it until everywhere I turned it was mobile this and mobile that and if you don't do this or don't do that.. Mainly it was the tools I was seeing being switched to being more mobile development oriented that got me to move that way.
Though I don't know a whole lot about it and just now figured out media queries and can code it by hand, isn't just the query line but you have to THINK in different screen dimensions and write all the css from beginning to end with multi-screen in mind. It's a new mindset at least for me with designing websites.
That is why I subscribed to Creative Cloud. When the tools go online only I will stop using them and cancel my subscription. Adobe wants to do that and will be a whole new level of angry customers when that happens, talk about not liking their subscription. Online only Photoshop or dumbed down dreamweaver online only versions... Pitch fork and buring time then! LOL
1886
Replies
Of course he has a basis for that statement, which is simply the obvious reality of things. This pricing model favors those who are bad at saving money up front, because now they don't have to. That's pretty obvious. On the other hand the ones that were able to pay up front now can't and their price has gone up. It also favors those who are uncertain if they will need the software for longer periods. The ones this model is horrible for is the long time paying customers. Those are the ones complaining here. Former pirates and newbies are happy. Those are usually the ones defending this model.
Simply because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean that the differing opinion is wrong..only different than yours.
AdChoices