[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

Report · May 06, 2013

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

Report · Jul 09, 2013

Ihodaniel,

I think I might have read some of your posts there. Scott Kelby really was defensive, as I would expect of someone whose reputation as an advocate for users was crumbling before his eyes. He (and others) have had lots of chances to speak out publicly, but have not done so.

Report · Jul 09, 2013

Well I for one have not renewed my NAPP membership, although I don't feel

that the Cash Cow model is there fault.

Not sure whether or not I will.

Report · Jul 09, 2013

CC is certainly not NAPP's fault, but their reaction to it is. These are not stupid people, and they can see how this is a rotten deal for many, if not most, of their members. They should speak up, rather than, apparently, being afraid to publicly criticize Adobe.

Report · Jul 09, 2013

Updates please?

Adobe seems to think that if they just wait long enough, this massive issue just disappears on it's own.

This company is seriously underestimating the amount of damage really pissed customers and former business partners can cause, especially now that we have internet to spread the word.

I personally think what Adobe is doing here, will eventually be used as an example in business schools on how to ruin a successful company in just a few years.

Shantanu Narayen will be know as the man who had it all, got too greedy and lost the plot totally. He will be known as the man who managed to destroy both Flash and Adobe. Both of which once dominated the market. Flash is already dying. Adobe will follow that in the hands of the current management.

Report · Jul 09, 2013

Going by the numbers published by Adobe: it appears that Adobe may have acquired 200,000 new Cloud Subscribers between Adobe Max (in May) and the Quarterly Financial Report published on 18th June.

Of interest to Investors should be the number of that 200,000 who have actually BOUGHT a subscription and are not merely running in Trial Mode; and also, how many of those who actually paid for a Subscription (but at the reduced Introductory price) decide to renew it at full price after the first 12 months.

Even 700,000 "paid" subscriptions is far below the 4.5 MILLION individual licences which Adobe purportedly sold for CS6.

That 4.5 MILLION may have increased considerably since the cessation of Perpetual Licensing was announced because multi-millions of Users are shoring-up their existing Licences rather than getting themselves sucked-up into the Twisting Tornado Cloud.

Report · Jul 09, 2013

One other major problem with the current trend at Adobe. The quality of programing at Adobe has been in a downward spiral for the last few years and it seems like Adobe would rather add more new bugs then fix reported bugs. Those of us in the print/publishing world can not afford to update (or maybe I should say use) to the latest software not because of the price but because of the lost time in dealing with the bugs and workflow changes. This has been an ever increasing problem of late, so much so that any new updates or upgrades now have to be tested on a backup partition (basically a beta partition) to see what is broken and or screwed up.

I my case, because of this I am going to wait and see what course Adobe is going to take in providing updates that fix bugs, or continue to screw with workflows, add new bugs, etc., going forward into CC. With the CC model I still don't know how easy it will be to have test partitions with new updates while maintaining a stable relative bugs free working partition and then being able to update the working partition when the new updates are confirmed to be working well enough to include in the everyday workflow where deadline have to be met.

I am not even sure what market Adobe is going after anymore. They seam to have lost touch with the real world.

Report · Jul 09, 2013

For what it's worth, Ars Techinca has a new article entitled 'Photoshop CC: modest upgrades shackled to terrible “rental” model' at http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/photoshop-cc-modest-upgrades-shackled-to-terri... .

The author doesn't seem too happy with the new rental model...

Report · Jul 10, 2013

Greg Bohn wrote
For what it's worth, Ars Techinca has a new article entitled 'Photoshop CC: modest upgrades shackled to terrible “rental” model' at http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/photoshop-cc-mod est-upgrades-shackled-to-terr... .
The author doesn't seem too happy with the new rental model...

That's an interesting article Greg. Thanks for sharing. I'm beginning to wonder if upper management has threatened staff to stay silent.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

I was on the $30 / month plan - and that was fine by me - but I got the notice today for the "update" to the $50 plan - and terminated my subscriptions right away. So now I will be rolling back to my CS4 and maybe look for a "CS6" update.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

So Harm Millaard was right when he said:

There are three kinds of people:

1. Those who make things happen,

2. Those who watch things happen,

3. Those who wonder what happened.

The first category is the group that make a clear statement not to pay Adobe taxes, the second category is the group who have accepted the Cash Cow model, possibly lured by the attractive first year pricing or the lack of a valid upgrade path, and the third category is where the majority of the subscribers end up after tax rates have been increased, which is inevitable.

Makes one wonder how many will continue their subscription after the first year?

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Exactly.

And a 4th group:
Those, who change things that happen
(and are on their way with competitors - like me)

...as Adobe seems to be not willing to adress only one concern.
Arrogant silence.

They are busy mollifying Share holders with half truth for the moment,

or counting Cloudies

or buying Net-companies

or selling out teir stock

Wonder if they have a real plan of their future...

Only can hear some cloud bushwah all the time...

Lots of estimations in Adobes future. Self set targets.
And I also think, that prices for CashCow will raise in a near future.

----------

CC = Cash Cow = Terminating the word "Archive" in digital future = Lifelong dependency = NoGo = Never

Report · Jul 12, 2013

And meanwhile, I just received a set of major updates to problems and desired features in Premiere Pro (along with others) a long needed flexibility, instead of waiting 18 months..... This was after listening to a webinar by Gary Adcock, major hardware and tech player in the professional production arena, who points out the many advantages to CC (available at Movieola webinars). And you have never owned the software, you've had a license to use it, that could be rescinded at any time (read the license).

Additionally there is a fiscal model which points to why it would not be an advantage to Adobe to jack up rates after their stated pricing structure. It's not a tax, it's paying for services. In this market it makes good sense from a technology development, company sustainability and consumer viewpoint. I am now paying 1/3 of my usual update costs for the "Master Collection".

P.S. In the time since this model came out, I have completed three projects that pay for the CC subscription for the next 5 years.

I am group one, "those who make things happen" I can be complaining or I can be working.

As pointed out here there is other software, if they serve your needs, please feel free to use them, rather than wasting your time here.

Respectfully,

Kevin

P.P.S. Since this is actually happening, it is the "real world"

Report · Jul 12, 2013

I'm sure there are bug fixes and new features, like any new version -- along with new bugs and bugs that remain unfixed. I'm pleased that some people are capable of being productive with the new arrangement. However, some of the arguments in favour of CC need a comment:

"You never owned the software anyway."

Perhaps not. The terms of many software licences require clarification in courts, to say the least, and are over-ruled by statutory rights in some jurisdictions.

However, ownership is not the issue. It is the fundamental change from a one-time purchase for a "perpetual licence", which you can use continually with no further interaction with Adobe; to a continual fee, made in perpetuity if you want to open your documents again, with constant permission from Adobe.

"If you can't afford $50 per month, then you're not a professional."

Paying for Creative Cloud is not my only expense. My cashflow is tidal, to say the least. There are fat times and there are lean times. I am sure I am not alone in this. A constant increase in my running costs, rather than an occasional investment at the time of my choosing, is not attractive in any way, regardless of the numbers. There are many large businesses with plenty of money that have a similar viewpoint. I know lots of major companies that are baulking at the Teams rates.

"It's cheaper than the Master Collection and you get more apps."

True. But I don't need ALL the apps. I'm a print specialist. I'm not going to produce videos or animations. There are loads of people (and companies) who only need a small subset of the entire suite, and the benefit of the remainder is irrelevant.

"You get updates and bug fixes as soon as they're ready."

True. But for many production environments, you don't want to be updating often. You want something that you know works, warts and all. You don't want to install an update and discover something critical has changed. Also, the point has been made that there is no longer a commercial incentive for Adobe to produce new features and fixes. Before, Adobe had to entice upgraders to part with their money. Now, they get the money regardless. Yes, it's a extreme assessment of the reality, but not without some accuracy.

The rental model is a worrying trend in software generally that needs stamping on. Imagine the day when you can't use your computer without getting a bill for the software you used.

"Internet Explorer used for 120 hours @ $0.10 per hour."

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Well said Benwiggy and fully agreed. It's a troubling trend and just because Adobe can do it, doesn't mean they should.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Thanks benwiggy.. this says it all!

Just spoke to a teacher of a mayor graphic high school here in The Netherlands and they hate what Adobe is doing now...

Students just don't have the money to get a license... They are all getting the lastest CS6 version. No CC for all the

future professional Adobe users...

Valentin

Op 12 jul 2013, om 15:35 heeft benwiggy het volgende geschreven:

Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
created by benwiggy in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion
I'm sure there are bug fixes and new features, like any new version -- along with new bugs and bugs that remain unfixed. I'm pleased that some people are capable of being productive with the new arrangement. However, some of the arguments in favour of CC need a comment:

"You never owned the software anyway."
Perhaps not. The terms of many software licences require clarification in courts, to say the least, and are over-ruled by statutory rights in some jurisdictions.
However, ownership is not the issue. It is the fundamental change from a one-time purchase for a "perpetual licence", which you can use continually with no further interaction with Adobe; to a continual fee, made in perpetuity if you want to open your documents again, with constant permission from Adobe.

"If you can't afford $50 per month, then you're not a professional."
Paying for Creative Cloud is not my only expense. My cashflow is tidal, to say the least. There are fat times and there are lean times. I am sure I am not alone in this. A constant increase in my running costs, rather than an occasional investment at the time of my choosing, is not attractive in any way. There are many large businesses with plenty of money that have a similar viewpoint. I know lots of major companies with plenty of money that are baulking at the Teams rates.

"It's cheaper than the Master Collection and you get more apps."
True. But I don't need ALL the apps. I'm a print specialist. I'm not going to produce videos or animations. There are loads of people (and companies) who only need a small subset of the entire suite, and the benefit of the remainder is irrelevant.

"You get updates and bug fixes as soon as they're ready."
True. But for many production environments, you don't want to be updating often. You want something that you know works, warts and all. You don't want to install an update and discover something critical has changed. Also, the point has been made that there is no longer a commercial incentive for Adobe to produce new features and fixes. Before, Adobe had to entice upgraders to part with their money. Now, they get the money regardless. Yes, it's a extreme assessment of the reality, but not without some accuracy.

The rental model is a worrying trend in software generally that needs stamping on. Imagine the day when you can't use your computer without getting a bill for the software you used.
"Internet Explorer used for 120 hours @ $0.10 per hour."
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Report · Jul 12, 2013

I am starting to see new submission guidelines that specifically say, Do Not Send Adobe CC files.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Was DYP, do you mean from other design houses and creatives? If that's the case, that's awesome!

Report · Jul 12, 2013

creativetta wrote:
Was DYP, do you mean from other design houses and creatives? If that's the case, that's awesome!

Mostly magazine publishers, etc.

Until the performance bugs in Indesign are fixed I doubt you will see much adoption of CC.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

And meanwhile, I just received a set of major updates to problems and desired features in Premiere Pro

I think we expect Adobe to do the very best they can for a year or so, so they can give people the much needed illusion of more software development in the CC model. It's the time after they have locked customers to this new model that worries me, since when you are hooked, you will reward Adobe every month no matter how little they do. As a public company they are going to put in the smallest possible amount of dollars into development they think they can get away with. It's their responsibility to minimize expenses. They are smart enough to understand the importance of showing more effort during this transition period.

And you have never owned the software, you've had a license to use it, that could be rescinded at any time (read the license).

For all practical purposes we have owned the license to use the software and we even had the ability to resell the software if we wanted. I will be able to use my perpetual licenses as long as I want. If Adobe would stop the activation of that software, there would be class action against them. If they want to get rid of their activation servers, they will have to do what they did with CS2.

Additionally there is a fiscal model which points to why it would not be an advantage to Adobe to jack up rates after their stated pricing structure.

They will absolutely have to raise the price since there will be significantly less people using the CC model than the old models. In order to make more profit with less customers, they will have to suck dry those who are hooked to the cloud.

I am now paying 1/3 of my usual update costs for the "Master Collection".

Really? Based on what numbers? Upgrading Master Collection used to cost 1049 $ and you paid every 2-3 years. Now you pay 600 $/year. So please explain your numbers.

P.S. In the time since this model came out, I have completed three projects that pay for the CC subscription for the next 5 years.

So what? Are you saying these projects were only possible to complete with CC? Absolutely not possible to do them with an older version of the software?

I am group one, "those who make things happen" I can be complaining or I can be working.

Well at the moment you are complaining.

As pointed out here there is other software, if they serve your needs, please feel free to use them, rather than wasting your time here.

It's always so ironic when somebody posting on the forums is criticizing others for... (drumroll) -posting on the forums.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Good job Andy.... Is he hired by Adobe?

Valentin

Op 12 jul 2013, om 16:00 heeft Andy Bay het volgende geschreven:

Re: No perpetual licenses are you serious?
created by Andy Bay in Adobe Creative Cloud - View the full discussion
And meanwhile, I just received a set of major updates to problems and desired features in Premiere Pro

I think we expect Adobe to do the very best they can for a year or so, so they can give people the much needed illusion of more software development in the CC model. It's the time after they have locked customers to this new model that worries me, since when you are hooked, you will reward Adobe every month no matter how little they do. As a public company they are going to put in the smallest possible amount of dollars into development they think they can get away with. It's their respnsibility to minimize expenses. They are smart enough to understand the importance of showing more effort during this transition period.

And you have never owned the software, you've had a license to use it, that could be rescinded at any time (read the license).
For all practical purposes we have owned the license to use the software and we even had the ability to resell the software if we wanted. I will be able to use my perpetual licenses as long as I want. If Adobe would stop the activation of that software, there would be class action against them. If they want to get rid of their activation servers, they will have to do what they did with CS2.

Additionally there is a fiscal model which points to why it would not be an advantage to Adobe to jack up rates after their stated pricing structure.

They will absolutely have to raise the price since there will be significantly less people using the CC model than the old models. In order to make more profit with less customers, they will have to suck dry those who are hooked to the cloud.

I am now paying 1/3 of my usual update costs for the "Master Collection".

Really? Based on what numbers? Upgrading Master Collection used to cost 1049 $ and you paid every 2-3 years. Now you pay 600 $/year. So please explain your numbers.

P.S. In the time since this model came out, I have completed three projects that pay for the CC subscription for the next 5 years.

So what? Are you saying these projects were only possible to complete with CC? Absolutely not possible to do them with an older version of the software?

I am group one, "those who make things happen" I can be complaining or I can be working.
Well at the moment you are complaining.

As pointed out here there is other software, if they serve your needs, please feel free to use them, rather than wasting your time here.
It's always so ironic whe somebody posting on the forums is criticizing others for (drumroll) -posting on the forums.
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Report · Jul 12, 2013

woknow@comcast.net schrieb:
Additionally there is a fiscal model which points to why it would not be an advantage to Adobe to jack up rates after their stated pricing structure. It's not a tax, it's paying for services. In this market it makes good sense from a technology development, company sustainability and consumer viewpoint. I am now paying 1/3 of my usual update costs for the "Master Collection".

Hi Kevin,

how do you end up paying 1/3 of your usual upgrade costs? Can you please explain.

If you do the correct math CC is at least 25% more expensive and this is only true for new individual customers that use the whole suite and would upgrade to every new version. For all other customers, expecially existing customer, companies, edu and customers that purchased one of the specialized suites (like print, web, production) CC is between 200 and in the worst case almost 500% more expensive. I did a breakdown earlier in this thread if you want to check the details.

What fiscal model are you referring, too? Just think that Adobe made very many promises in th elast two years that they broke. They told their customers that they don't care for the needs of their customers. They only care for their own vision. They say they do it for the money. Would you believe a friend that lied to you many times? Don't be mad when you get lied to again. Adobe forced older customers to upgrade or to lose the upgrade path. They already forced customers to pay for each upgrade. They don't care. It is standard business procedure to start with low fees and then raise the price on existing customers. Discounts are only given to new customers. So with all this in mind the likelyhood that Adobe will raise the price is high. Why do you think they would not raise the prices? Adobe tries with CC to cover up the biggest price invcrease in their history. Why do people still say that CC is cheaper?

Report · Jul 12, 2013

woknow@comcast.net wrote:
And meanwhile, I just received a set of major updates to problems and desired features in Premiere Pro (along with others) a long needed flexibility, instead of waiting 18 months..... This was after listening to a webinar by Gary Adcock, major hardware and tech player in the professional production arena, who points out the many advantages to CC (available at Movieola webinars). And you have never owned the software, you've had a license to use it, that could be rescinded at any time (read the license).
Additionally there is a fiscal model which points to why it would not be an advantage to Adobe to jack up rates after their stated pricing structure. It's not a tax, it's paying for services. In this market it makes good sense from a technology development, company sustainability and consumer viewpoint. I am now paying 1/3 of my usual update costs for the "Master Collection".
P.S. In the time since this model came out, I have completed three projects that pay for the CC subscription for the next 5 years.
I am group one, "those who make things happen" I can be complaining or I can be working.
As pointed out here there is other software, if they serve your needs, please feel free to use them, rather than wasting your time here.
Respectfully,
Kevin
P.P.S. Since this is actually happening, it is the "real world"

I read the Adobe's user agreement and it calls me an "owner" of that CS6 license. .

You say it's paying for services - Adobe provides tools. I don't rent tools. I don't subscribe to software.

People who are complaining are not wasting their time here. They want Adobe to know what a mistake they made. And if they need to be reminded every single day so be it.

I edit feature films full time and have done so for the past 20+ yrs. I'm not a hobbyist or student. I can easily afford CC and it's a very easy choice for me not to give Adobe my $ any longer at any price point for subscription based software. . I'm not going to pay a subscription for CC. Ever. Regardless of the features. Period. Regardless of the price. I don't subscribe to any software and I don't rent my tools.

True story - I had a producer come in recently and asked if I was using CC. When I said no - his response was "Good, then I know you don't like to waste my money."

The Adobe spin doctors can keep spinning and drinking the Adobe koolaide all they want. It's not going to change reality - the Cloud has a negative connotation and the subscription model is even worse.

Report · Jul 12, 2013

True story - I had a producer come in recently and asked if I was using CC. When I said no - his response was "Good, then I know you don't like to waste my money."

Love that quote! Thanks for sharing!

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Owner? So you can reverse engineer, copy, share, etc....?

You own the license to use their code. Not drinking Kool-Aid. I had much the same thoughts last year when Adobe first introduced this. It was a knee jerk reaction because I didn't know the facts. I like that the company is no longer constrained to a release schedule which hampered timely innovation.

As for the "wasting time" comment, Adobe has had their meetings, decided to go forward with the subscription model and are invested in it, so all the time complaining here is not likely to alter their direction. Wouldn't it be better to go use other software or hire some coders to write your own, rather than lobbying a major corporation who has chosen a major course change?

I like Adobe software, it does what I need (and much, much more) I am willing to pay the way they are going to charge, and get back to creating.

It is, what it is....

Kevin

Report · Jul 12, 2013

Woknow, still waiting for you to comment on you bizarre math (claming to be paying 1/3 of your usual update costs for the "Master Collection").

Owner? So you can reverse engineer, copy, share, etc....?

Yes, owner of the license, just like Adobe's own EULA states. Why are you still flogging this dead horse? Everybody knows what we mean by owning the license (as the opposite of renting) and there is zero misconception about that. Stop splitting hairs.

Wouldn't it be better to go use other software or hire some coders to write your own, rather than lobbying a major corporation who has chosen a major course change?

I will do what ever I can in order to commit to the failure of Adobe's new business model. A part of that will be encouraging people to consider competitors. Another part will be to use logic and reason to show why CC is a bad deal for 95% of the customers.

I like Adobe software, it does what I need (and much, much more) I am willing to pay the way they are going to charge, and get back to creating.

I like some of the Adobe software too. That doesn't matter because I wont rent my tools. Fortunately I have been checking out the competition and I liked those products too. Xara designer pro for example looks amazing. Adobe is definitely not the only fish in the pond. This epic Adobe failure might actually turn out to be a great thing for the creative industry!