[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

[Mattrman]

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

[eschelar]

But the fact is that this math was obvious from the beginning. Now that things are turning out how logical people would have predicted, we're still operating within their status quo, so even if a medium percentage starts to drop the sub plan, the people holding the reins will remain unfazed.

I must say, as a major Adobe 'evangelist' and proponent of "going legit", who has taught photoshop workshops and soon to start teaching premiere in University clubs to people who are usually not in a financial position to put together a couple hundred bucks for a perpetual purchase for at least another couple of years and who almost universally go for pirated software... I'm feeling a lot less motivated.

I still think the PS+lightroom package is nice - FOR THE PLAY AT HOME MOM.

But since most of the people I interact with are burgeoning professionals and workers who either work in an environment (as described above) with PS + AI + 1 other depending on their need, or more involved like a production premium scenario, but well short of master collection, I don't know if I have any useful suggestions except "go for CS6"... which most of them already have courtesy of pirates...

I always used to think it was odd that in countries here in Asia, where piracy is the norm that Adobe's strategy was always to make "going legit" MUCH more expensive and inconvenient ($650 for student license Photoshop Extended compared to $699 for PS Standard in Canada - PLUS language locked! to the country!) than in countries in the west like Canada ($325 for student version of web design premium CS5.5, $375 upgrade to full license CS6).

Now I can see that Adobe's future is just being sold out for the quick cash-grab now.

Sadly, the policy of "asking forgiveness is better than asking for permission" has become financially viable in our current day, so they'll manage without having to take their customer base into consideration.

[Aegis_Kleais]

Seems like Adobe is getting more desperate.  Now they are offering up to 2 years at $39.99/mo.

It still has absolutely no draw on me.  Adobe has gotten $0 from me since CS5, and I've spoken with and convinced enough friends in the industry who've also cancelled their upgrade, that I've been able to keep tens of thousands of dollars out of Adobe's pockets.  It's not the end all, be all, but it does make me feel good.

[Megalodon]

Makes me feel good too Aegis Kleais!

Adobe INTENTIONALLY screwed us over KNOWING that many of us would not like this scheme, yet they went ahead anyway. I have also lost all respect for the like of Kelby and White for not standing up for the community and getting behind Adobe. I will not buy anything Adobe again - well, unless the CEO and most of the board resigns or is fired. They simply don't deserve to lead the company. Proof is in all of he sales that they keep advertising and we KNOW that subscriptions are down. I've already stated on two surveys from Adobe that subscription ONLY is bad and I will buy from other software companies. Fortunately there are a great many and they will soon surpass Adobe.

Good move Adobe. You PUSHED everyone who was loyal to (and respected) you out the door.

[DamnDesert]

All I know is until Adobe pulls its head out of the creative cloud it won't see another cent from me.

[rainschub]

All their offers will end "soon" since may.

LOL.

And when they end, we see the new one - very better offer.

I still got a 3yrs/same price (Never! Not for even 1 cent) offer via mail.

Seems, they have problems to show their numbers of subscribers at the next business conference & they don´t want to frustrate Wall Street.

Wonder, how long they can offer these prices...?
Their income is terrible down... (1/4 of last years...)

[Megalodon]

"Their income is terrible down... (1/4 of last years...)"

Oh...    that's such a shame.

Serves them right for intentionally screwing over so many of their customers!

[eschelar]

from what I read, it's down 25%, not down TO 25%.

Logic would say that once the easy switchovers are finished, switchovers will slow down unless there are people who are really stuck and need to switch over.

One example - I had an EPS document that couldn't be opened by CS6. The customer wasn't interested in explaining to his artwork the "nitpicking details" such as asking them to save their EPS with compatibility for CS6.

So I downloaded the trial onto a spare computer, opened, saved and moved on.

Yeah, I was slowed down by 25 minutes to go through this process. But compare that to $600/yr or $240/yr for just that one file...

My suggestion to switch even a single user to $240/yr was denied. We are sticking to the plan of 1.5-2.5 years before we move to sub model.

So not an 'early adopter'. Not a 'switchover for necessity'.

There doesn't appear to be a marketing strategy for CC that DOES apply to either us as a company or myself as a user.

[Megalodon]

"from what I read, it's down 25%, not down TO 25%."

Ahhh...   too bad.

Then again, perhaps MUCH of that profit is from people purchasing CS6. I'll be more interested in seeing the profits from 2014 - and I'm sure Adobe is too.

[rainschub]

> eschelar

Net income went from

832,775 (2012) to 289,985 (2013)
And also the income was more based on selling CS than CC
(numbers available at Adobe.com/investors)

[Was DYP]

0. Fiscal Year 2013 Financial Highlights

   • Adobe achieved revenue of $4.06 billion and generated $1.15 billion in cash flow from operations during the year.

   • Creative Cloud subscriptions grew by 1.1 million and Document Services subscriptions doubled to more than 1.6 million. In

     addition, the company added more than $700 million in Digital Media ARR during the year.

   • Adobe Marketing Cloud achieved a record $1.02 billion in annual revenue, representing 26 percent year-over-year growth.
   • The company repurchased 21.6 million shares during the year, returning approximately $1 billion of cash to stockholders.
   • Adobe published other key highlights from its recent fiscal year in an Adobe By The Numbers FY2013 infographic.

0. Fiscal Year 2012 Financial Highlights

1. • Adobe achieved record revenue of $4.404 billion. Annual GAAP diluted earnings per share for fiscal 2012 were $1.66, and annual non-GAAP diluted earnings per share were $2.35.

• Annual operating income was $1.180 billion and net income was $833 million on a GAAP basis. Annual operating income was $1.597 billion and net income was $1.183 billion on a non-GAAP basis.
• Adobe generated $1.5 billion in cash flow during the year.
• Creative Cloud paid subscriptions grew to 326,000 as of the end of the year, with exiting annualized recurring revenue of

  $153 million for the Creative business.

• Document Services achieved record annual revenue of $786 million.
• Adobe Marketing Cloud achieved a record $777 million in reported annual revenue, representing 35 percent year-over- year growth.
• The company repurchased 11.5 million shares during the year, returning approximately $372 million of cash to stockholders.

[Megalodon]

"Fiscal Year 2013 Financial Highlights "

But again...   what percentage of this was subscription and what percentage CS6?

It would make a BIG difference.

[Aegis_Kleais]

Of course Adobe Marketing is going to put a spin on published numbers.  Everything is put out as a positive.

I'm sure that's the reason why they don't publish customer satisfaction numbers.  If you can't put a positive spin on it, don't publish it.  Believe you me, Adobe is gonna keep with subscription models for as long as people keep spending the cost, despite the massive price hike and miserable ala carte pricing.

I'm just wondering how long it'll be before Adobe attempts to creep the cost upwards

[eschelar]

It's a good question.

The primary reason for the switch was novelty. The first set of subscribers are already in. The second set of subscribers is the entry-level crowd.

I'm still of the opinion that $9.99 is very good value for PS + LR for stay at home moms and students just dipping their toes into Adobe's sweet waters. As Piracy for CC becomes more difficult, there will be a split between the community (people who pirate because they like to... often the providers of cracks) and those who just plain couldn't afford it, who now can.

The marketing folk are likely looking for the second group to migrate to that exact package. And as someone who also makes the recommendation to the ***MANY*** people that I meet that are in that boat to go legit with that package, I feel that this will continue to bring in droves of people to the CC subscription model.

The PROBLEM is that while it's well suited to these hobbyists, there is no equivalent deal for anyone who exists between "hobbyist" level and "serious full-time professionals" who don't mind paying to stay updated with the Master Collection. Although many of us paying customers exist in that range. And almost NONE of us think about Adobe in terms of 1 month. Or even 1 year for that matter.

I'd like to see numbers for their conversion rates from CS6 Premium Suites to the CC Complete plan.

I'd also like to see their numbers for people who primarily used AI (and maybe indesign).

Heck, even as a guy who got started doing photography alone and used to be quite happy with PS 7.0, I am no longer happy with that because the role of photographer has expanded to include video. Few serious photographers have the luxury of ignoring that and just sticking with Photoshop/LR.

I am system administrator and work with quite a few people who use AI with a little PS on the side and so far, including companies in Europe, Asia, Canada and the US, to date, I have only encountered ONE company that has made the move to CC for AI users. And that was last week.

The next raft of conversions will doubtlessly come when 2 development cycles have passed (probably the 3 year point) and people who ordinarily upgrade every 2-4 years will start looking at their budget and thinking "time to upgrade" and "man, CS6 is getting long in the tooth".

Begrudging subscribers will be the last and least fruitful conversions.

Why Adobe has created a marketing plan where such a huge portion of their target market is relegated to the slowest type of converters and most likely to exhaust ALL possible alternatives before conceding to a payment plan TRIPLE their normal budget is mind-boggling to me.

[Megalodon]

"As Piracy for CC becomes more difficult,-"

How do you see this happening? I don't use pirated software, but it seems they can crack anything and since the application resides on your own computer, there is no difference from the previous CS software. Perhaps if/when they end upgoing to the "real cloud," then perhaps it MAY become more difficult. Otherwise, I don't see any difficulty on the horizon for cracking CC at all.

[FrannieKN]

As I recall, it was hacked the first day it was released! As an ex-programmer, I have respect for what it takes to write a program like Photoshop and have always paid for it... but I think that day... well, maybe I felt a little bit of joy when CC was hacked so quickly.

(If anyone at Adobe is listening... I have always paid for it... but I will never rent it. It seems that you want me to spend my purchasing dollars somewhere else now. OK, fine.)

[Aegis_Kleais]

CC is a bargain (as far as price goes, not for the fact that you aren't buying something you can own), if you want 1 program, or all 17.  If you want 2-16, you're pretty much screwed over.

For me, I'm only interested in like 6 programs or so (what suites used to offer perfectly), but with Adobe's pricing, I'd have to pay 100% more than I budgeted for, and get 9 more pieces of software I'd never use.

[eschelar]

To be honest, I didn't really look at it, but I would assume that it requires a different method. I do know that the method to crack it was deliberately left open from PS 7.0 or earlier all the way to CS6.

It's one of the reasons why Adobe is considered essential and ubiquitous by so many today instead of just another piece of software like ACD See, ULead, Cyberlink and Corel's offerings.

[Megalodon]

              - "(If anyone at Adobe is listening... I have always paid for it... but I will never rent it. It seems that you want me to spend my purchasing dollars somewhere else now. OK, fine.)"

Same here. I will NOT rent production software. There will ALWAYS be software that you can own a license because there will always be groups who want to flip the bird to these greedy companies.

             - "For me, I'm only interested in like 6 programs or so (what suites used to offer perfectly), but with Adobe's pricing, I'd have to pay 100% more than I budgeted for, and get 9 more pieces of software I'd never use."

I don't care what they charge for it - it can be $1 a month for everything and I won't give Adobe one penny. Forcing the customer into a one-size fits all by subscription only is WRONG. They do not care about providing great software, they only care about their revenue. They have realized that they can't compete by convincing us to buy the next suite because they have better features, so the force us to subscribe. No way. Not now. Not ever.

[rainschub]

I´m not a friend of pirated software - absolutely not.

(But one can ask in this discussion: Who is the pirate here? Adobe or the others?)

But: As discribed on many web-sites CC is already pirated. There are existing torents.

It seems, it´s only a little bit more difficult to hack than before - but possible.

But: There are discussions, that Adobe "used" piracy-users to get their reputation, their No 1 possition with.

They didn´t really track that & gave away many "educational" licenses without "real" aproving.

Now - as competition grows and gets better and better - they try to change that.

But: Again: Don´t use pirated Software. It´s not fair.

If you (like me) don´t trust Adobe any longer or don´t like the distribution - leave them.
It´s absolutely possible.

Google: Adobe Alternatives & inform yourself. It´s surprising. Overwhelming. Amazing.

For many of their Apps.

[eschelar]

I think it's commonly accepted fact that Adobe allowed simple backdoors that never changed from version to version, allowing easy first day cracks. I discussed it with the Adobe rep when I was buying the upgrade to CS6 and he didn't come out and say it, but he basically acknowledged it.

They did the same thing with Photoshop Touch. Although it wasn't as easy, you could download the APK. I discovered this because I got it when that was the only version available and it was somewhat legit because it was in the early stages. Then when I went to try to buy it ($500 phone, $9.99 app, of course I'll buy it!), the play store for some odd reason said my device wasn't able to use it (I was running it at the time). When I told the Adobe rep that I wanted to buy it with my upgrade since my credit card was handy, he said he couldn't and I should just wait. Actually, I hardly ever used it because a fingertip is a poor tool for PS Touch.

Nearly a year later, it still wasn't purchasable for the One X and I upgraded to the Note 3 - which did have a purchasable option. Took me under a minute to eagerly thrust my cash into Adobe's pocket. Why did that need to wait a year?

And "giving away educational license without real approving"? wtf? I tried 7 times over 3 years to buy Educational version Photoshop Standard, even speaking directly with the rep at an education and work fair at the University I was attending. Even when I went back home and took a supplementary course at the University of Victoria, it was virtually impossible to convince them to let me buy an edu version. It took 3 weeks and 4 trips to the campus store to get that sorted out.

As to leaving them, I have a fully legit copy of Adobe Production Premium CS6 and a fully legit copy of Vegas Pro 12. I use Adobe because A) it works better and crashes less (albeit less user-friendly) and B) I work on another computer for much of my video editing and that doesn't have Vegas Pro 12. I used Vegas Pro since version 9 and honestly, I prefer the interface a LOT, but Adobe's Premiere does actually seem to do a better job. Plus I work in an office where we need to cooperate with other partner businesses, printing shops etc. Can't do that without AI.

Good video editing suites are out there, but not that many to choose from. Sure, there's Edius Grass Valley and Avid, but neither of those are cost effective when compared with a computer already fitted with Premiere. And Photoshop. And to a lesser extend, Audition and Speedgrade - both of which I'd like to use, but really haven't found necessary yet.

Adobe does indeed have market saturation. And I strongly, strongly doubt that many of the companies that we interact with are all using legitimate versions.

[TheCoroner9]

Aegis Kleais wrote:

CC is a bargain (as far as price goes, not for the fact that you aren't buying something you can own), if you want 1 program, or all 17.  If you want 2-16, you're pretty much screwed over.

For me, I'm only interested in like 6 programs or so (what suites used to offer perfectly), but with Adobe's pricing, I'd have to pay 100% more than I budgeted for, and get 9 more pieces of software I'd never use.

The fact Adobe thinks removing choice from their customers is moving the company forward should make everyone take notice (and not in a good way).

CC isn't a good value for myself and many others at any price (including $1 a month) when we have to give up Choice.

[eschelar]

It's not really about whether it's a bargain or not for first time buyers.

Anyone looking at Adobe Master Collection is *NOT* a short term buyer.

People who are going for $10/month photoshop + LR often are, so that pricing makes sense - except for the people who change life circumstances. The guy who got me into serious photography has Photoshop from his wife, who was a graphic designer for about 10 years in Vancouver. But then they moved to live overseas, and after some years here, she got cancer. Now she has some long years ahead of her where she's got a lot of time sitting in bed back in Vancouver, where rent is high... Think she might do some graphic design work on the side to help pay the bills? pretty likely.

There's a couple of upgrades in there, but she's mostly satisfied with CS2 or CS3 AI that she has with a single upgrade after leaving Vancouver. That has been sufficient for her for quite a few years and is indeed sufficient for her now.

If she had been a CC user at that time, could she have kept her skills up while she wasn't working in the field just by doing hobby level stuff and the odd bit of freelancing?

Maybe, but it sure as heck wouldn't have been cost effective.

It's just simple math really.

And it's probably fair to say that the vast majority of serious Adobe users currently in existence already have the package.

It's probably also fair to say that anyone considering a first time purchase of a major Adobe package like a Suite or Master Collection *IS* planning on using it for many years.

People don't go out and buy $2500 software packages with a HUGE learning curve for a summer job or a 1 year term. These people are in it for the long haul - mostly looking at things as 5, 10 or 25 year careers. They look at pricing in terms of upgrade paths. Initial purchase costs are almost totally irrelevant.

The pricing may look ok for 1-2 years, but compare it on a 5 year or 10 year term and CC is TERRIBLE value for anyone other than: A) entry level PS users, B) MASSIVELY multi-talented Adobe Djinni with a thriving business (like the Filmriot guys) and C) guys who are in the top end of their industry and have enough income that even the cost of subscribing to CC for 100 years is just a grain of sand on the beach.

Curiously, that excludes: Z) All Suite users, Y) Broadly talented guys in mid-sized businesses that wear a few hats and switch between them occasionally, X) ALL serious amateurs, W) Narrow Talented users in small-mid sized businesses that usually do just one type of task, V) ANYONE who uses CC for more than 5 years.

[vo1mnm]

I was really excited about cc when it was announced, but once I realized your software use ended once you stopped paying, I knew that it was not for me.  I went to college for digital art and media and used adobe cs.  I Pirated software while I was in school (as everyone in my class did).  Once I graduated I bought the software, and upgraded when I could afford to only.  I don't work in "the industry" , I now work as a baggage handler at the airport in one of the poorest provinces in Canada.  But I still enjoy using Adobe software for creative purposes.  If I lose my current job, then there is not much of hope of me being able to afford "the cloud".    I believe that "the cloud" is just a fad anyway.  It would be better for Adobe to go back to "perpetual licensing" but just through download only.  We don't need boxes and discs anymore.  Companies like Apple and Ableton do a really good job of distributing software through "download only"  and they don't require a subscription.  In a few years we will all look back and remember "the cloud".  Oh yea that was a stupid idea.  I'll still be using my external hard drives for years to come.

[ssprengel]

Subscription pricing models are to help even out cash flow and keep people paying for the use of licensed software. Using the term Cloud to describe a subscription pricing model is likely a fad, but the subscription pricing model, itself, is not, I don’t think.

[TheCoroner9]

Subscription pricing models are also to help thin the herd and keep people from spending $ with a company.

The only aspect of subscription pricing models I like is that it saves me a ton of $ every month since I will never subscribe.