[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

[Mattrman]

I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

[W_J_T]

Alec Molloy wrote:

Yes, apologies, I misspoke.

If only Adobe themselves could make this same acknowledgement based on past declarations to it's customers.

Along the lines of "features from the cloud will be available to the next version of perpetual licensed owners".

-------

Great link to read for everyone over here in a recent thread: http://forums.adobe.com/message/5312482

xIDx wrote:

BTW, you might want to read the following link entitled Adobe Creative Cloud:  Lopsided Legal Agreement. It is not pretty:

http://macperformanceguide.com/blog/2013/20130508_1a-Adobe-legal-agree ment.html

[Picturequest]

That is strange. So you pay for 1 month only. You have Photoshop on a non internet computer. For virus and security reasons, I have editing machines without any internet access. So, Photoshop will continue to run for 99 days or 180 days before you are locked out?

Seriously, this seems not very well thought out.

[Pauls Sloss]

Alec Molloy wrote:

There is a lot of confusion around this launch, but you can get answers to these questions and more here: http://terrywhite.com/5-myths-about-adobe-creative-cloud/

This is a terribly written piece of information [quoting from myth 4]:

# 4 “If I decide to leave Creative Cloud I won’t be able to access the files I’ve created.

... If you decide to no longer be a Creative Cloud member then you won’t have access to your Creative Cloud applications anymore, but if you’ve got previous CS App versions, you’ll be able to open your files provided that you’ve saved them down to compatible formats with your older applications or other 3rd party Applications. If you ever decided to re-join Creative Cloud you’ll have access to the latest Creative Apps again and you’ll be able to continue working on YOUR files."

I find the way this is written is very misleading. You make this look like downsaved files are the same as the native files for the version you are cancelling. Downsaved files will either be missing content when you open them in earlier CS versions, or have flattened proxies for features that aren't supported in earlier versions. Nowhere in your FAQ do you say you won't be able to open your original files if you cancel your subscription. You have to infer this, and many people haven't. This is a big negative against the Creative Cloud, and Adobe is spinning it as no big deal.

[rosequill]

I'm also concerned about how many posts I see detailing "You can get photoshop for $10", when that is a bit deceptive. Sure, you can get it for $10 if you're 'upgrading', but that upgrade cycle only lasts one year, then it's $20, and I'm willing to bet that will be the last upgrading pricing anyone is going to see.

As a new user, if photoshop were $10 a month, I'd buy CC. At $20 (ever) it's a non-starter.

[OldeSoulArt]

Well 3 years into CC and Adobe hasn't crashed and burned as many predicted.

I can't believe people are still complaining about this.  The whole suite of products is $50 a month. I'm sure the majority of you are paying 3 to 4 times that to Comcast or Verizon each month for the privilege of being lured onto your couch to sit in a stupor, but $50 per month for a collection of time-proven, professional products that actually MAKE you money, and its hellfire and brimstone.

Chalk it up as a cost of doing business, account for it in your pricing and financial planning...its not the end of the world.  If you're not clearing a $50 profit per month from the work you do then a subscription service isn't your problem, I don't care how "freelance" you are.

[jonf50585586]

Hi Olde Soul Photo.

I agree with you that $50 isn't much for most professionals. Here's the deal:

Internet is pretty much internet, no matter if I pay Verizon or Comcast. If Comcast gets crazy expensive, I can switch to... well, not Verizon, I mean really,... but you know where I'm going with this right? Adobe After Effects is not easily replaceable. I am not complaining about Adobe's product being better for me than another company's product. I am just fully aware that, now and in future, Adobe can mess with me in ways that Verizon can't.

What many old school users dislike, is that this used to be a product one could own. Only through technical advancements (everyone has Comcast or Verizon... ) has it become feasible to now take users money on a monthly basis. In the long run, most of us pay more than with a "perpetual license model", or as I call it, because I like fancy words, a purchase.

Just sayin.

[OldeSoulArt]

I totally get where you're coming from, I was hesitant at first myself.  My Adobe experience started well before even CS, when Macs were beige boxes, so I can relate.

That being said, I just find it ironic because this is the same community that will equally bash Apple for "abandoning professionals".  I remember when FCPX and Logic Pro X were first announced and released, the interwebs exploded into chaos. The professional market is coming to an end, they're catering to cell phone users, etc.  Same with the new Mac Pros a couple years back, now again with the new laptops.  But when Adobe makes a move catered to pros that turns the software from incremental updates every couple years to a system that has continual automatic updates, better integration between apps, better collaboration features for working with a team, with the assets I choose to put in the cloud available to me anywhere in the event of HD failure, and not least of all the solid experience of working with something that just works and I'm used to....all for what amounts to one of my lowest monthly bills, personal or professional, that I'm going to write off anyway...its still an issue.  Seems like a good deal to me.

It seems like the main sticking point is peoples' perception of ownership.  Perpetual licensing doesn't make you immune to a company messing with you.  They could at any point say CS7 is coming out and it's going to cost $1200 and people would be outraged and complain and threaten a boycott and moving to other software.  And then they would pay it.  You're still tied into their system, its no different.  As for the Verizon/Comcast comparison I can go into how you don't really own that either, since you're probably paying a fee per box like me, along with an assortment of other hidden fees and taxes that can't be explained.  But I don't have to because just by gut feeling alone I can say I've been FAR more messed with and burned by Verizon/Comcast than by Adobe or frankly any other company I can think of and its not even close, lol...maybe I'm alone in this.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think CC is perfect.  They could DEFINITELY have more flexibility with the pricing if you don't need the whole package.  The photographer bundle of PS and LR for $10 is cool as far as I'm concerned. Then maybe a sliding scale to where if you buy a single app lic. for $20...you can add another for $10...and then any additional app for $5.  That might work, I don't know...ADOBE IF YOU'RE READING, GET ON THIS.

As for the person calling me selfish for voicing an opinion, you're taking this a bit personal.  I'm not speaking with anyone's money and I'm not rich by stretch of the imagination so I'm definitely not being disrespectful of people with financial problems.  Nobody is forcing you to buy into it, there are other quality alternatives that cost less...even free ones.  Even with perpetual licensing you're talking about CS, the industry standard, premier software package that costs hundreds of dollars to begin with.  If i had financial problems, I wouldn't be investing that kind of money into software anyway.  I'd start with what I could afford until I could upgrade to what I really want, like everything else in life.  If that makes me disrespectful and selfish in your world, so be it...enjoy.

A company changed their business model, life will continue.

[eschelar]

People have been suggesting to Adobe to add a perpetual license option of some sort since CC was first unveiled. The most popular and sensible of these was seen in many threads, including this one - specifically to have a "lock in" if the person pays for 2 years, if they stop paying for some reason, they are able to lock in. This would provide people the option to pay on alternating years (as many, MANY freelancers and personal users did since the early years, even well before CS).

Having it cost more than it used to for a perpetual license would be unacceptable. If anything, CC has brought *less* features, less often to the Adobe suite. If Adobe had held their pattern, they would be on CS8 or CS9 by now, with major updates in each of those packages. The price of the Adobe suite has always been high, which has been an attempt to position themselves as professional software, *NOT* indicative of the cost to make it. There are many other programs that do a similar thing that are priced significantly lower. Increasing the price would help the greed of Adobe's shareholders, but the price is based on things like average global incomes and what working professionals could afford. Last I checked, wages for tech workers were going down in most countries, not up. The result of this is that in countries where they make significantly less than what Adobe views to be "average", piracy of Adobe is near 100%. I know hundreds of local photographers, photo printing companies, video professionals in this country. I know two that have paid for it. I am one of them. Another shop I know is running Photoshop CS3 that they paid for. Adobe knows all about this. They continue to keep the piracy methods static (it's basically the same method to crack Adobe today as it was for PS 7.0). I spent years trying to encourage people to "go legit" with their Adobe software. I no longer do.

Increasing the price of the software simply because their main license method has become more expensive is unacceptable business behavior. It is easier now than ever to accept rampant piracy of Adobe's software. This ultimately means that the price burden must be shared by a larger number of people. And the evidence suggests that this has indeed happened. Adobe's revenue went up a tiny bit, but compared to the average cost increase of nearly 2x to everyone *except* the vertical markets, it indicates that a *LARGE* number of CS users did not convert to paying for CC. As my old manager always used to say to me, you can't look at overall increase, you have to compare your overall increase to the overall market increase. If your company makes 3.2% more over last year, that's good, but it's not so good if the size of the market increased by 2.5%... or 5%... Adobe doesn't take that into account and the reason is that if you take a serious look at their revenue, it shows a massive drop in paying customers. Did they switch to another software suite? Which one? Unlikely. Pirate Bay is far, far more likely. Adobe used to use piracy to drive their conversions to real sales (I also switched to paying after pirating for years through my 'starving student' days). Now they use CC to drive piracy.

I'm pretty familiar with much of the Adobe suite. There are a handful of major functionality improvements at best. There are a ton of bugs that haven't been addressed for many years. Many of the updates that have been introduced in the recent "2017" are sideways, minor updates to things that have introduced no new functionality, just moved some of it from one place to another (ie the perfunctory increased capabilities of the properties panel), or gimmick BS stuff like the emojis...

They did introduce a few major updates early on that were presumably earmarked for CS7 (ie adobe camera raw filter and improved roundtripping with the video editing suites), but if you think you've got better value with "constant updates", you're just enjoying having your ears tickled by the spin-masters. On every video I have seen about "new features" in CC 2017 (which is being presented as a "major" update to CC), the vast majority of comments are basically that people are unsatisfied with the quantity and quality of the updates.

On the other hand, the biggest problem introduced by CC is the ransomware.

A current trend in black hat software design is "cryptolocker/ransomware". Adobe CC's subcription plan is essentially the same. You pay, or you lose access to your files.

This is a dealbreaker for many people. Myself included. I can understand that you might not want to support software after a certain point (ie the countless bugs in CS6 which continue to be ignored even though the license *was* perpetual and bug repair *is* the responsibility of the manufacturer - look at Microsoft and XP/7). But you cannot validate the idea that adding in a subscription requirement *for access to your own work* is acceptable in any way.

Again, there are very simple solutions for this that would see me convert instantly to a CC customer. They have been suggested since CC was instigated. Adobe has no interest in doing any such thing. Back when they introduced it, they promised that they would consider alternatives with perpetual licensing. Nothing ever came of it and they expect us to just forget it and start paying them to support a ransomware business model because of cognitive anchoring (ie because it has become familiar to us, so the impropriety is diluted). Apparently that works pretty well on some people, yourself included. But for intelligent people, the answer is: Nope. Not ever.

[OldeSoulArt]

Not quite sure why you felt the need to take a dig at my intelligence at the end there, but based on your assessment of what "acceptable" business practices are and your justification for stealing what you can't afford...I'll leave that alone for now.

Mentioning "greedy shareholders" in the same breath as admitting you (for a time) and the majority of your colleagues are software pirates is indeed rich.  That you can actually sit there and justify that with an air of indignation is telling to say the least, and highlights the disconnect that a lot of people seem to be having, so let me clear it up for you as simply as I can:

Businesses aren't obligated to price their products or services within your price range.

Businesses aren't obligated to concede to their customers' every whim and demand.

Businesses exist to sell/market/develop a product or service and make money while doing it.

You have the right to change who you do business with.  You do not have the right to change how someone else conducts business.

Do you charge your clients based on what they can afford or on what your time is worth, taking into consideration insurance, equipment costs, travel expenses and the other everyday business expenses that virtually every business owner factors in when setting their rates or prices? When a client demands you lower the price of your work to fit within their budget, you concede every time huh? When I get people asking me to shoot their weddings for $300, I refer them elsewhere.

Also, since you're apparently an expert on Adobe business practices and internal pricing strategy, exactly how much does it cost Adobe to develop their software?  Remember, they employ hundreds of programmers, designers, executives that all make a pretty good salary, not to mention their advertising budget. But that can't possibly be a factor, right?.  No, according to you their software has always been on the more expensive side because they're playing mind games with all of us "unintelligent" people.  So to be clear, following your logic would have me believe that something becomes an "industry standard" for over 20 years because the company making it are Machiavelli'ing all of us dumb people and not because their products have been proven over time to be consistent, reliable and effective, and have helped creative professionals earn a living from day one....got it.  Boy, I feel smarter already.

As for upgrades...what specifically would you like to see?  Because I think we're almost at the point of feature saturation with this kind of software.  Bug fixes and optimization is expected, of course.  But honestly, what can't you do right now because of some "missing" feature?  I haven't ran into "Damn, if only I had this feature...I could do X, Y and Z." in years.  Support for 4K and beyond, streamlining UI, optimizing existing features...that will probably be the order of the day as far as "upgrades" for awhile, useful ones anyway.  If that's not good enough, I hear you can do Texture Painting in Corel Draw now and On1 Photo 10 has a bunch of filters and presets available....groundbreaking stuff.

"Ransomware" is a great buzzword but I've put my CC account on pause before when I was going away and for some odd reason, none of my RAW files were kidnapped in the middle of the night by Adobe. Same goes for the video files I make a point to convert to Apple Pro Res when archiving, in case I need to re-grade in a *deep breath here...non-Adobe program.  I consistently backup all my media in non-proprietary formats just in case disaster strikes...I must be weird or special or something.

I'm not saying you have to like it.  The great thing is you have a choice, as does everyone.  I weighed the pros and cons and the pros came out on top by a large margin so I made the business decision to roll with CC, despite it not being "perfect" in my eyes.  For ME, it makes sense because ultimately its about the big picture and I take into consideration more than just the pricing of one component of my workflow when making those kinds of choices.  Kind of like a loss leader product in supermarkets...they take a hit on them but they get you in the store where you will invariably spend money on more profitable goods.  I don't think CC is perfect but it works for me, makes me money and I had no intention of switching to another suite anyway because I've tried other solutions and download trials of competitors' products all the time and it always comes back to Adobe working best for me.

Apparently making a business decision that works for me, makes me profitable and doesn't impact my bottom line in any appreciable way...as opposed to lurking in a forum for 3 years demanding a business make changes to their business model to suit you that aren't going to happen, makes me less intelligent than you...cool story.

[DAVIDE PEPE]

I'm not able to handle this discussion. I think my English vocabulary is not enough to make you understand my point. I think it's better to leave this discussion to avoid to overwhelm this thread. If I've offended you in anyway that was not my intention so please forgive me.

I wish you a wonderful day,

Davide

[OldeSoulArt]

Davide, my last post was in response to another commenter...not to you.

Your English is fine and I understand your point with no problem...I just don't agree with it.

Having a different opinion doesn't mean I'm disrespecting you.  Not everyone is going to agree with you, that's life...it doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

I also fully understand why you and others are writing on this thread.  I realize you're not asking for the subscription service to be removed...you're asking for Adobe to basically reverse a business decision they made 4 years ago and I'm just pointing out that it's not going to happen and no amount of foot stomping or whining about it is going to change that.

Again, we all have the freedom of choice, you have the option of using any software you choose.  You also have the right to petition Adobe with your demands...but calling them crooks or portraying them as some evil company when they don't bow down to them is childish. 

As as the saying goes..."It is what it is." 

Time to dive in or move on.

[DAVIDE PEPE]

Hi OldeSoulPhoto,

I don't know why I didn't get the email of the message before yours so I thought you were answering to me.

And while I was reading your answer I've thought wow how I've been able to let him think what he's writing here?

I agree with you we are free to have any opinion I'm not talking about this!!! What I wanted to say you is simply if this is a thread made to ask adobe to reintroduce the chance to buy a perpetual license in addition to the subscription plan why someone would write here and say it's not possible we are still here complaining about that. This is counterproductive respect the aim of this thread. We can talk about politics and having different opinion but this is not the right place.

Me and the other people on this thread just want to have everybody happy so this is not against your will or against everybody who love Adobe subscription plan model. For this reason I've felt your message disrespectful. I have nothing against you and your idea and I respect you as human being and able to think and have your own opinion. As you rightly said this is life !!! Best,

Davide

[DamnDesert]

Davide definitely at some point people just need to get on with it. I'm one of the people who was outraged at how CC was shoved upon us and perpetual licenses were just dismissed. I think the discussion however goes beyond just Adobe's CC and the perpetual licensing fiasco, at this point many old school companies have committed the same sin upon their customers. No question the cloud has amazing potential and benefits to be sure, I'm not anti-cloud per se.

Myself working in cyber-security and understanding the expanded risk involved with migrating to the cloud, what I have seen has been truly angering and frustrating. So many companies just ran to the cloud with the sophistication of a love sick Justin Bieber fan with zero buy-in from their customers. Worse yet risk analysis was thrown out with the baby and the bathwater, they just did it with everyone's Personally Identifiable Information (PII) we entrusted them to protect. So many companies were willing to drag us along for the ride cyber-security and risk management be damned, they're just figuring it out as they go and we are the fricken test mice. Technology companies, Microsoft, Apple, Cisco, and all the way down. Healthcare, banking, and all kinds of commercial businesses ju$t $aw the po$$ibilitie$! Oops we got hacked! We were victims! Pity us, we'll offer you free credit protection for 2 years! Careless C-level executive slobs did this to everyone in a race to the cloud.

Honestly everyone should be pissed about that, as a result our information and our families information was used for their conquest and much that info now sits on the dark web and has been exploited by cyber-criminals and adversary countries. The deed is done, we're there now, but that doesn't make what happened okay.

[DAVIDE PEPE]

Hi DamnDesert,

you are right!!! I forgot about that!!! If the CC model was loved even after their database was hacked I think that's the only way to go now.

Have a nice day,

Davide

[eschelar]

Not quite sure why you felt the need to take a dig at my intelligence at the end there, but based on your assessment of what "acceptable" business practices are and your justification for stealing what you can't afford...I'll leave that alone for now.

Your intelligence is shown by your words. If you think ransomware is acceptable, that says something about you. If you think it's OK simply because it has been around for a few years now, that says something about you. If you think that $50 isn't much money, therefore ignore annual costs and the plight of people who operate in differently scaled economies, that says something about your intelligence. If you think that access to your own work in the next few years is the only consideration to your license, then that says something about your point of view. Plenty of people pay for Adobe software for a license not attached to a business.

For myself, my license is for personal use and is not the license I use for work. If I was on a subscription model, I would have paid 2400-3000 USD for that license at this point. Or I would lose access to things like my sister's wedding video project, the PSD and Bridge XML/ACR work for 3500 pics I took during that 2-week holiday, and a whoooole lot more. Not to mention what happens after I retire...

As to "justification for stealing what I can't afford", I have a valid license for Adobe Production Premium CS6 via upgrade paths from software legally purchased. *Adobe* has been validating piracy for years by choosing not to change their methods to crack their software. 0-day cracks are available because it's the same basic crack, with just a few value changed in the algorithms. Adobe supports this because *it feeds their business model*. Adobe would be just another company if they didn't have market dominance in so many avenues. They achieved this market dominance by making their software easy to crack. They are well aware of this. They are also well aware that they have served as a model for many other companies who are using similar methods. Windows has been easy to crack, instead of making it harder to crack, MS has opened their doors to the "legitimate" software side of things with their "no questions asked" policy on W10 upgrades. As long as MS remains market dominant, they remain powerful. These are known strategies.

Mentioning "greedy shareholders" in the same breath as admitting you (for a time) and the majority of your colleagues are software pirates is indeed rich.  That you can actually sit there and justify that with an air of indignation is telling to say the least, and highlights the disconnect that a lot of people seem to be having, so let me clear it up for you as simply as I can:

Businesses aren't obligated to price their products or services within your price range.

Businesses aren't obligated to concede to their customers' every whim and demand.

Businesses exist to sell/market/develop a product or service and make money while doing it.

You have the right to change who you do business with.  You do not have the right to change how someone else conducts business.

As to this nonsense, I made a genuine effort to purchase Adobe software when I was in Uni. But they decided that the normal options available in Canada and the US were not available everywhere. Therefore I used my own methods to accomplish the goal. If I had not, I would not have learned their software. They would not be ahead of the game, they would be a couple grand poorer. While that's not a huge amount of cash, it illustrates my point above. They are well aware that the price of their software puts it beyond the reach of the average person. They are well aware of the prevalence of piracy. They make no effort to change either the cause or the method of piracy, so they are quite OK with it. I've spoken with Adobe staff before and they are indeed aware of this pattern. Seems like most of their management has no clue though. Sounds like you match that pretty well. CC has driven piracy upwards dramatically because of increased costs and resistance to ransomware.

Either way, I ended up saving up my pennies (yeah, I lived on around 200-300 USD per month while I was studying abroad) and eventually had enough to purchase. That's how that worked out. Incidentally, Adobe has made various CS2 products available for free. I personally used PS 7.0, CS3 and CS4 before I was able to afford buying in. I have told Adobe directly. They don't have a problem with it.

My indignation now is *not* that people are forced to piracy. That's been happening since day 1 for Adobe. I *used to* try to combat that. Not anymore.

My indignation now is that Adobe's method to try to get people to pay is by blocking access to their own body of work. That is unacceptable in every case and a far greater problem than University students pirating Photoshop for a few years to learn it.

As to development costs, this is also futile discussion. How much it costs them to develop software is not related to how good it is. Look at CC2017. It is being released as a "major update". Everywhere I have seen, the vast majority of response to it has been that it is a paltry offering with very small levels of improvements, things like adding "tight" text alignment in AI (borrowed from MS Office)...

Compare that with something like Content Aware Fill. That was indeed a major function. That would have cost quite a lot to implement.

Look at artboards in PS. A function nobody asked for - yes, it's kind of handy, but it's a borrowed function from AI and it's not critical for 99% of the people 99% of the time.

Look at the increased functionality of the Properties panel. The functionality added actually doesn't add full functionality and literally just borrows functions from other panels, but only some of them...

Now you are trying to suggest that I'm somehow dumb for suggesting that none of these functions offer either increased value for working professionals (when the vast majority of working professionals are actually saying that they aren't impressed) or that none these borrowed functions represent significant amount of work by the developers compared to major functions like Warp Stabilizer.

Even the tools that I think were worth adding - ACR filter in PS and Premiere, along with the new color grading tool in Premiere... Those are refinements of existing technology and aren't really treading new ground. Why would you think that they represent the same amount of R&D investment of earlier technologies that were much bigger steps? Why would you try to argue that common sense on these issues is foolish?

Support for 4K by the way does not require a subscription service. Every major NLE on the market has offered 4K support for years (and 3D). Even programs like Vegas Pro offered it before Adobe did, while costing half the price and not needing a subscription. What does that tell you about your imagined "development costs"? Davinci Resolve has offered 4K support for ages. Hitfilm too. Oh yeah, Hitfilm has a fully featured NLE with 4K support... for free.... What was that about not understanding development costs?

I've worked wedding photography too. I know what you mean about the lowballers. And certainly I have a limit for my own value. But I wouldn't suddenly triple my rates and say "yep, that's just what I'm worth now, but I'm going to slow down my work too". Because that would be rude. I most certainly wouldn't tell previously existing customers that they couldn't have access to their previously shot photographs unless they paid my new rates. I most certainly wouldn't tell my customers that they have to pay $10 a month to display their photographs on their wall or I would come take them away.

As to ransomware, this is a real thing. If your license expires, you do not have access to those programs, and you lose access to your work files, ie prproj, .psd, .ai etc... That's ransomware. It's not unique to Adobe and it's not a new concept. It's not a word I made up. Educate yourself please.

You think that backing up your work in non-Adobe formats is normal. But I ask you... if you didn't stand to lose access to your work if you were no longer in a position to pay the monthly/yearly ransom, why would that be normal? Backup is backup, but for my work, since I started using Adobe software something like 17 years ago, I've never had to backup specifically in non-Adobe formats. Granted, I keep RAW files and original video files, but I don't export my .prproj files to generic format or Bridge sidecar files... Why do you think that's normal behavior if you have purchased software, that you would need to have a way to access it with other software???

And you think I'm weird.

[OldeSoulArt]

Ok the first half of your diatribe is just a blatant self justification for stealing.  The fact that software piracy exists and your perceived indifference Adobe has shown to it, does NOT mean that a company condones you stealing their product.  It's still illegal, it's still a crime...period.  You're obviously sensitive to any reference to your intelligence, even though you opened that door by questioning mine for having a different opinion...you don't seem to have any such reservations about your own ethics seeing as how you're actually trying to make a case that stealing is ok if the victim doesn't try to stop you in the way you think they should. Real nice example you're setting..."Hey kids, it's ok to steal if they can afford it and don't try to stop you."  So your moral code isn't rooted in a personal responsibility to do the right thing, it shifts according to the situation to justify your actions...and this is somehow less dubious than what Adobe did?  On what planet?

First off, you're sitting there quoting things you heard about CC to someone who actually uses it...when you don't.  Let me tell you something about "Everywhere I have seen, the vast majority of response to it has been...":  People are 80% more likely to post a negative review than a positive one.  It's a well documented aspect of human nature. When disapointed, people tend to be more vocal...whereas most people anticipate satisfaction when they buy something, that is one of the key drivers of why a person chooses one thing over another.  When that thing meets expectations, most people don't feel an urgent need to vocalize their satisfaction...because they are too busy using or enjoying It.  When that thing doesn't meet expectations, people react instantly and more vigorously because they CAN'T use or enjoy it and they want action immediately.  This is why you invariably see more negative reviews than positive ones, regardless of the product or service.  To the point, you don't even USE CC so your comments regarding the frequency, value and quality of updates is mere conjecture and thus invalid here say.  The fact you think you can argue the merits of something you don't even use to someone who does, in conjunction with your justification to steal and basically say it's the victim's responsibility to not be stolen from, paints a pretty vivid picture of the kind of person you are...the fact you're now trying to shame Adobe for being unethical would be hilarious if it weren't such a contrived, hypocritical stance.  And I never suggested you were dumb for suggesting the value of the updates, I don't have to...forming such a strong opinion based solely on negative reviews (see above) without ever using it yourself to better inform said opinion, IS dumb.  Not YOU, but that practice is definitely dumb.

The rest of your drawn out rant basically proves the very simple premise I put forth of personal choice...you're painting yourself as some kind of victim when nobody forced you to use Adobe products.  YOU chose to use them.  Now ask yourself why.  You say Adobe is well aware that their pricing, even pre-CC, put their products out of range of the average person.  And?  They're professional products, designed for and marketed towards professionals.  I'm sure Ferrari is well aware most people can't afford their cars...according to your logic, that's somehow unethical and its bad business practice to not cater to those who can't afford their product. Your logic would have us believe it's ok to take a test drive and not return with the car simply because its priced higher than you think it should be...when there are other, more affordable alternatives out there. Sorry to inform you, but that's just not the case...no matter how many paragraphs you use trying to justify it.  You're not Robin Hood, sorry.

You mentioned alternatives that are better than Adobe's, some even free.  My question to you is...what are you still even doing here?  Lurking on a four year old thread about a four year old issue when you have superior choices you can use for free isn't making a strong case for your "intelligence".  If I found something that works better for me that was FREE?!?!  I wouldn't even be thinking about Adobe in the least, let alone posting to their forum.  That's like lurking around your ex-girl/boyfriend's job and giving them dirty looks through the window...not a good look at best, horribly unproductive at worst.  But again, we all have the freedom of choice, including the way in which we conduct ourselves...I won't begrudge you yours, have at it.

As for my backup methodology, it's all insurance for me. First, it's just common sense to have original format backups of your raw media...period. Furthermore, at any moment a new software package could come out that blows my mind that I'd like to try...I'd like to have all my work in non-proprietary formats just in case. Is that a "plan"? No. I don't plan on getting into a car wreck every time I leave the house either, but I still pay my car insurance.  Its all about having contingencies because life is unpredictable...apparently you find that "abnormal".

When you've actually USED CC and can base your argument on personal experience and not just conjecture and secondhand information, feel free to respond and l'll be happy to debate the pros and cons with you on equal ground.  Until then, good day to you sir.

[eschelar]

I manage dozens of computers in 4 offices around the world. I personally use Adobe software regularly on 2 laptops and 2 PC's. I am occasionally called in to help other local businesses that we partner with as well.

I have led workshops in local photo/video clubs for over a decade. Perhaps what you think you know about my personal usage patterns doesn't match my usage patterns. I personally *own* Production Premium CS6 as a personal license. The vast majority of my Adobe use is not under that license. I have set up CC on a fairly hefty number of computers. I've set up and built actions in CC. I've stayed abreast of many of the differences between the versions in most (but certainly not all) of the avenues of the Adobe suite. I have 3 "spare" pc's set up with CC (trial mode, not putting cash into that) for conversion of files from the few customers we have that use CC (so far, there are about 4 customers that use CC out of 220 or so - most of our customers are small-medium businesses and only a few in the US/UK are using CC).

As to your high horse preaching about 'stealing', get over it. The *vast* majority of students anywhere/everywhere pirate Adobe. Many of them move on to becoming Adobe professionals. Outside of the most prosperous places (UK/EU/US/Canada), piracy of Adobe vastly outstrips legitimate use. These are well-known phenomena. That's not a self-justification as much as "duhhhhh".

Adobe uses a "paywall" to establish an elitist group of brand loyalists. It is integral to their market position and their business plan. Piracy is *crucial* to making Adobe as strong as it is. If they genuinely didn't want piracy, they wouldn't leave the keys in the door overnight, every night, for decades. They want it. They need it. They encourage it. So quityerwhining about it. In the end, I put money in their pocket and became a strong advocate for it when people can afford business software prices. Adobe is not worried about some minor software piracy that happened nearly two decades ago. Neither should you be.

If you would like to bring up real instances of usage, feel free. I already brought up examples above of specific usage patterns in CS6 and CC. I've discussed them in many other parts of this forum.

As to my usage of free software, my argument was not that it's better and free. My argument was that development costs cannot possibly be as high as you think they are - and are more likely far closer to what I think they are. If dev costs were genuinely so high, then nobody else would have product on the market. Then the argument comes up "Adobe was first, the other guys are just copying - invention trumps innovation". Which would be a great argument if it weren't also true that Adobe was certainly not first and that most of their great inventions came from purchasing other companies that developed the tech (ie warp stabilizer, content aware fill....) and if most of the "new updates" didn't contain almost exclusively sideways movements and features borrowed from other software (ie artboards in PS from AI and text wrapping from Word...).

Again, as a working professional in a multi-national collaborative environment, I can't just switch my software for whatever reason. Hence, I refer to other companies that I interact with and the experiences of others, as well as their comments.

I do agree that there is a negative bias for comments. However, your argument is somewhat self-defeating. I am arguing that there is little notable improvement that would cause people to speak up. You say that of course people don't speak up because people generally don't unless there's something genuinely notable. However, look at some of the vids that Adobe has released of older versions where people were excited about major new features, not just a new name. You will actually see lots of positive comments. Adobe did actually used to have a *lot* of positive buzz surrounding their updates. They have successfully reduced that to a trickle. People used to talk excitedly to each other about things like "did you hear about content aware fill? it's amazing! I can't wait for CS_".

Adobe's reception to their software releases since CS2 have generally been very positive. CS3 was a major step forward from CS2 in that it no longer performed like a rusted WW2 tank in the mud with no tracks and water in the fuel line. CS4 was a minor refinement with little fanfare. CS5 was a good jump (again many users tend to go with "every second update" for good reason) and CS5.5 was really big too. CS6 polished a lot of the stuff that came with CS5.5 but wasn't quite ready.

CC brought a lot of excitement too.

There were a lot of changes that were overdue and people were looking for CS6.5 or CS7. I've mentioned some of these above. And with CC came the added subscription model and the death of the intermediate suites. There's no longer anything for people with specific jobs (ie Web Design Premium or Production Premium), there's just "PLEASE PAY ALL FOR ALL". That started a negative spiral and Adobe has probably lost a good third of their paid licenses (ignoring natural market growth), many of them being established professional users.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with having a backup plan. I also have a backup-oriented workflow which involves archiving original files. But I don't create non-Adobe backups of work files or project files. For example, when I get a batch of 600 pics from a photographer, I archive the originals. I then build folder structures and set up access for those people that will work on it. I use Bridge heavily for collaborating, with a combination of ratings, color coding for work assignment and/or completion stages and ACR. I use batches to finalize most things to PSD (working files) or proof/finals (JPG, PNG, TIFF and the occasional animated GIF or external project (AI, Prem, ID...). Take Bridge out of the picture and that causes a lot of problems. Take PS out of the picture and the work files get broken.

I use similar processes for home projects.

Now you're suggesting that you also have an archival step for your working files that is non-Adobe specific? So you're keeping TIFF files with layers? What about the adjustment layers? What about your smart objects and smart filters? I know that files certainly can be imported. But it pretty much mangles whatever it was that you were doing. Most of my work files have between 80 and 300 layers, with extensive use of smart objects and adjustment layers. That's not something you can just drag and drop into MS Paint.

and as I said, I don't think it's abnormal. I think it's saying something that you are planning for the time when you lose access to your work, but you're arguing that the idea of "ransomware" is ludicrous. You either think it's something that could happen or you don't.

As to the Ferrari argument, that's nonsense too. NO car maker sells cars exclusively on a subscription basis where they reserve the right to jack up the price and take away the car you *already purchased* if you stop paying. There is leasing, and lots of people use it. But most people don't. Most people would be insulted if you stopped selling cars outright. Car enthusiasts most of all.

But also you can't compare cars with software because the value of the car is in the hardware. The value of software is not in the hardware. I don't think anyone is trying to say that Adobe will try to ask for the DVD and plastic case back if you decide to stop paying for CC. Nobody is even complaining that you might not be able to use the software to create *new* work if you stop paying. The thing that people are upset about is that you have a professional working tool that has been in a dominant position in multiple industries with *existing bodies of work* that these people will lose access to if they stop paying. It's not ransoming the software. It's blocking access to our *our own work* that causes the anger and indignation.

From the point of view of a business, that's frustrating, but not a big deal... as you say, if I can't afford the licensing, my business is dead and I have no need to access that work. But from the point of view of a freelancer, casual user or a *personal license*, it becomes a very, very big deal. If I lose access to my own personal use work, I lose access to work files of personal projects like watching my friend's children grow up, video projects from my sister's wedding, video projects I worked on with my cousin's children whose father is now in jail for murder and who have lost a part of their youthful innocence that will never come back.

I might not re-visit those things for 10-20 years. Under a perpetual license, as is common to *every other software company*, that's not a problem. But Adobe wants to hold that as a license to coerce me to pay a lot of money for this. I consider that inappropriate.

Of course, there's some very subjective viewpoints in there and most of my objections are regarding the personal license holders, but I can also see the viewpoint of hundreds of businesses - small businesses and freelancers. I live in a country where small business is much more prevalent than in North America/UK. And the Production Premium suite is a perfect fit for many of these people. Just as many would use a 2-3 program license (PS+AI or PS+AI+Prem). Removing that is harmful to those businesses and freelancers. CC represents a significant increase in price, so it's understandable when Jimmy over there decides that $600/yr isn't worth it when he was able to keep a relatively recent copy of Prod Premium for around $220/yr for the 5-6 projects per year that he does with it for his little shop. I can see his point of view. I'm surprised that you/Adobe cannot. Or that you think his/her point of view is invalid. It was valid enough to create the intermediate suites in the first place. They were a good idea, a good example of paying attention to actual needs of actual customers. Taking that away is the opposite of that.

[DAVIDE PEPE]

Hi Oldesouldphoto, what you say it's simply selfish. When you say something you can say it for yourself. You have no rights to talk with someone else's pockets.

I use the suite to creates my artistic works and I don't get any money for that but when I win some prize in festivals. I want to pay for my software and I want to be able to use the release for what I paid if I need in the future. That's the reason I would like I could pay even something more but to be able to use it whenever I want to use it. The update prize from a release to the other was pretty much the price you pay now in one year of renting the software with the difference that if you now want to use any of the cc you've paid for and you have not a subscription plan you can't use it. So please open your eyes looks well around you before to say any word  and be respectful with people with financial problems.  Kind regards, Davide

[terryf63]

Just spent some hours fighting Adobe over a 'volume license'.  Not sure what this is but I bought CS6 in 2013, registered it with Adobe and received the serial number.  Just upgraded the desktop and found that the license has been revoked.  Adobe think it's a pirate copy although I have the original sales invoice, unfortunately from a reseller who is no longer around!  I've tried uninstalling and reinstalling but no joy.  Has anyone got any ideas that will resolve the problem?  Like most contributors, I am an enthusiastic amateur and prefer to own and manage my own software.  I have never rented software and do not intend to start now. 

[Rajashree Bhattacharya]

Hi terryf63,

I have sent a private message you regarding the issue that you  are facing. Please read  & feel free to respond in case of any inconvenience.

I find that you have open support cases too. I will certainly follow up if required.

UK support contact : Contact Customer Care

Regards

Rajashree

[davez]

I have been considering this whole "rent your software" concept since I first heard about it a while back.....My kneejerk reaction was the same.....RIDICULOUS!

But, looking at it......Lets say for a moment that a legit upgrade from one version to another is $375 as someone posted. And lets say that the upgrade alone were on a payment plan for you rather than all up front. Let's say you buy it on a no-interest credit card and have to make the minimum payments equal to that $31.25 a month.

Now, if you love the upgrade, you continue to use it.And pay monthly until paid off in 12 months. Then you own it. No more free upgrades, etc.  It is what it is. You like it enough to buy the next upgrade ,again on the same payment plan, etc.

But lets say that for some reason your needs change and you decide that you want to go FCP, Vegas, AVID or whatever after 3 months and dump Premiere, like some here have threatened to do.....

You will have $90 and change into the upgrade after 3 months but still have to pay for that remaining $285 even if you no longer use the software because you have that obligation. You owe that entire chunk of money.

In the same way, paying it all up front, whether a $375 upgrade or a $2,000 suite, you lock yourself in to paying that amount NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS going forward.  After 2 years of no upgrades, your PC tanks a motherboard and CPU and you decide to upgrade to Windows 13.x to compliment your new PC.... and your "perpetually licensed"  software no longer works? You lose that money.  Decide to switch platforms? You lose that money.  Decide to stop editing video for 8 months while you ponder the meaning of life?  You lose that money. You leave now, abandon the software, and you are out that same $2,000 regardless.

Yeah, you can "give it to a family member" or "use it for unimportant stuff on the side"...but come on....we all know how that goes.  It's a hoarder mentality.. I have it.  I have that piece of software from 10 years ago somewhere on my shelf with a "perpetual license" , II own it outright.  But is it as useful as it once was to me?  Still, I keep it on the shelf.  Collecting dust is all it does, but dammit, I own it while it is doing so....LOL

With the subscription plan, you at least can make a clean break from Adobe and the expense at some point if you want WITHOUT having that full amount into it in the short run.  Ok, a fairly lame "rpo" for most here......as time wears on you have more money into it, but still not as much as paying it all up front and then paying for upgrades along the way and you can walk away at anytime.

If the price for the subscription for the full blown suite is $60/month , that is $720 a year.....how many years would that amount have paid for, for a full suite? 2 or 3 right?

I guess if you wanted to go to 4, 5, 6 years without ever updating your software, then the numbers change some. But not drastically. The averaged per month cost is still there.

Considering the costs of updates (assuming you would have wanted to stay current or NEEDED the new tweaks etc offered in the pay-for-updates model), I think its a wash.  Scary, yes....because its a mental thing:   "If I buy this software now for $2,000 I can have a perpetual license and use it forever for free! Versus having to make a monthly payment FOREVER".....But how many folks REALLY will use one version of any software product "FOREVER".... Anyone still running Premiere 4? I have it on my shelf. I own it....I could reinstall it, if I were still running windows 2.....LOL  Desktop computers change, camera codecs change etc etc etc .  With the CC model, if you keep subscribed, in 5 years you have invested $3,600 into the software but you will ALSO have gotten all the updates and improvements.

People have always griped about paying for updates too, the thinking being "once I buy a piece of software with a perpetual license, I should get updates forever too!"  And you know that can't work.

Actually, if software were handled like any other product.....new cars for instance...where would we be?    When you buy a new car and drive it home, only to find 4 months later that the manufacturer has a new faster , more powerful engine....do you just pay a few hundred dollars and get that new engine and all the trimmings? Of course not.  So why do people expect software to be that way?

So I see CC as an improvement in some way....ensuring we are up to date and have all the cool tools.......And Adobe can enforce their licenses and earn money for what they are selling rather than have pirates using it for free.

OF COURSE the big caveat here is whether Adobe will step up and make great improvements available regularly to make it all worth it. But hopefully in 5 years, we will have a much improved , much more capable software than we would have the other way.

I dunno...I think the biggest "losers" in this change would be the folks pirating the software.....and I doubt Adobe cares very much about losing those folks. Premiere hardly needs "the exposure" anymore...its a widely accepted professional tool with a great following. People doing this "just as a hobby" and using software "forever" can stay at CS6 (which is pretty robust anyways) and use it "forever".  In that market, users are not prone to justifying a couple grand in spending for a hobby any more than they will be able to justify spreading that couple grand over monthly payments for CC.  So those folks, and perhaps me included, may need to look elsewhere for a viable editing tool that we "can afford".

That all said, for those who just bought CS6 in the last year or two, planning on having it for a bit, and who want updates for camera codecs like XAVC and being told "sorry, no more updates", it's a bitter pill.  But there had to be a cut off point in changing over to this model.

[eschelar]

#1 - you didn't do your math correctly. CC is $50/mo and $600/yr. The reference to $375/yr is for guys like me who are using one of the suites which have been available for quite a few years. I use an intermediate suite called "Production Premium". Before that I used another suite called "Web Premium". Those packages were $375 for an upgrade. Full Master Collection was quite a bit more, but it's important to note that I do not have Master Collection, nor do I need it or want it. And I certainly haven't budgeted for it.

#2 - CC costs more in two ways. The first is that it requires you to use either the bargain basement package or the full collection. This is a change in their policy that I do not agree with because it pushes their software back out of my budget. When I'm at work, I use the company's licenses. I own Production Premium for my personal use. Quite frankly, I don't use it all that much at home since I am at work quite a lot. I don't mind paying $375 after nearly 2 years of use to keep my license up to date and my feature set current. It starts to get a bit ridiculous when I am asked to triple that to $600/yr for a bunch of software I don't even want. That was the idea of the intermediate product suites. Adobe has enough customers and their product costs enough that it's reasonable to see mid-level packages. Sony sells their video software in around 6 different tiers, all the way from beginner to experienced home user to serious amateur to 3 levels of Pro with accompanying software. Adobe is now: PS and LR or *everything*. This screws over everyone who owns PS + AI, everyone who owns PS + Premiere, *DEFINITELY* everyone who owns Pemiere + Speedgrade and AE, etc, all the way down the line. The only type of customer this is useful for is a business user. Do Adobe think that personal users and people who don't need the full package are no longer worth their attention? Do they just assume we're going to pirate it anyways, so might as well just let them do that and make all the legitimate paying customers carry that burden by increasing the on-year costs?

The second is that the software breaks if you don't keep paying. This is a half-step shy of extortion. I've got projects that are 2-3 years old and more that I've come back to to pull clips from. With Adobe CC, even if I wasn't using Adobe anymore, I'd need to have paid them $1800 to keep access to those work files for 3 years. Utter insanity.

#3 - You give the self-defeating argument about "if you don't like it". Well here is how that works. If you don't like it, you can stop paying. You end up having paid less for software you didn't want. And all the projects that you worked on while you were evaluating are *GONE FOREVER*.

Give me a break. No company builds their business plan around software that they will use, then stop using. The vast majority of Adobe users are long-term users (which is also why the "first year" of Adobe after coming in from CS is totally meaningless). I control software licenses at my work and for my personal use. For both of these, I view costs in 5-10 year chunks and off into perpetuity. Throw me a bone for a small discount for one year, but increase my overall cost over 10 years by a factor of 3 and I'll notice.

If I don't want to keep using my CC, I cancel and *LOSE ACCESS TO ALL MY FILES FOREVER*. These work files are worth more to me than the software - certainly for a business, this is true by definition. Those work files represent monies earned that must be more than the cost of the software (unless you don't understand ROI). For personal use, this is probably also true, but in a less direct way. If I don't want to keep using my Production Premium CS6, I can stop using it, and keep using it as long as I like. Or if I don't think the software was any good, I can sell it and recover some of my money. You can do that you know... But at least I understand the risks and I could wait 3, 4, 5 years or more to make my decision and still have a product worth something. I've seen people buy older software. I helped someone do that just last month. It was cheaper for them to buy an older version for use with their startup company than to do CC. I think they got AI CS4 for $79 on Ebay. Assuming they use it for 5 years, that's $79 for 5 years vs $1100 for 5 years using the subsciption model. Nice.

#4 - nobody keeps using software forever. But in business, budgets tend to require a lot of work to change. I look at things from the point of view of money in the bank to how far I can stretch it for *every single project I need to do*. I look at how much something is likely to cost, then secure my budget and see how far I can stretch that budget.

You say that after 5 years you will have invested $3000 (math please!) and gotten all the updates. Wow. That's a compelling argument... except for the fact that I have been using Adobe for a while now.

Purchased in 2011, through to 2016 pricing for Production Premium (it wasn't as smooth as that, so there's some assumption that things remain the same) to CS8 for my personal license): Initial buy-in $400 (I got in via educational license). Upgrade in 2013 to CS6. $375. Upgrade in 2015 to CS7 $375. Upgrade in 2017 to CS8. $375 = $1525.

Contrast to CC pricing: $3000.

#5 - why would we expect software to be different from cars? Uhm. I'll give you a hint. Choose any file on your computer. Control-C, Control-V. What just happened? Yeah. Now do that with your car.

How did that work? Nothing? Yeah, that's why software is different from cars. If you send out a car that has a major flaw in it, sending out a bug-fix is *VERY DIFFICULT*. For software, there are challenges, but it's not a lot more difficult than a software distribution model for initial purchases. If you have that worked out, I'm pretty sure you can figure it out. But let's be totally clear about this too. Nobody is asking to have CC for free. Or even any updates beyond the basic support for the package we bought. I'm still using CS6 both at home and in the office. We've had updates to Camera Raw. But my Premiere still can't autosync audio like CC. I do it by hand. Or I could use PluralEyes. No biggy. Before CS3, I used PS 7.0 because I didn't have a strong enough computer for the CS packages and they didn't have enough "bells and whistles" to get me to embrace the performance hit. Not really a big problem.

If my budget doesn't support having all the latest bells and whistles, I can live with that. Sadly, for CC, you either *MUST* take the bells and whistles (and bugs that go along with it) or you lose access to your files. WTF?

#6 - How much Adobe improves over the next 5 years. Spoken like a true newbie. I've been using Adobe for quite a while. The number of things I do in PS (my primary software skill) that I can't do in PS 7.0, CS3 (my favorite version before CS6) or CS4 with actions:

Content Aware fill. Adobe Camera Raw Clarity slider (I like it). Smart Objects (they were around in CS3).

Yep. Three things.

Now that's a bit silly of course because I do use and benefit from the software in more ways than this, but those two represent the value of CS6 to me. But those to me represent value worth paying good money for.

What is there in PS CC? Adobe Camera Raw adjustment layer. Yummy. But the workaround is to just open the image in ACR at the beginning. I have actually done this. Gone back into Bridge, ACR, exported another version of the image, brought it into the main working PSD and put it on the old version of the original image, with several adjustment layers above it. No big deal.

Is that $1200 worth of value for me to have been using CC for the past 2 years? Nope.

#7 - Where is Adobe pushing us middle guys? Well quite frankly, it's pushing me to other software and to piracy. I made a huge effort when I was in Uni and again when I went back to Uni to get legitimate software, but I did use pirate software for a while. I know how it's done and I know how it works. I made the effort to get it legit because I wanted to support Adobe. I felt good about Adobe and wanted to pay them money. I still do. I just don't have enough spare cash to match the requirements of CC. And my feeling towards Adobe has changed. It's not just the price hike that makes it not work. It's also the fact that Adobe has taken away their attention to us middle guys. No Production Suite for you! If you use more than PS/LR, your only choice is to go Full CC. Not only that, but the card they hold in their hand to get us to pay more is basically extortion by holding our own work files for ransom.

That's going to make it a lot easier to make the switch away from paying Adobe because I want to into not paying for it because Adobe is being evil.

Back in 2012, things were so bright. My software was all fully legit. I had a great phone with Adobe PS Touch and it was awesome. Now Adobe has turned things dark and confrontational. They have long black fingers that are clawing at my wallet with one hand while the other hand wraps its fingers around the throat of my work and personal creative projects. PS Touch has been abandoned and is on autopilot since mid 2013 and the newer version requires CC.

Those are not the conditions that elicit a "wallet-opening" response from me.

[davez]

WOW! A lot to consider....but I did my best...LOL

"#1 - you didn't do your math correctly. CC is $50/mo and $600/yr. The reference to $375/yr is for guys like me who are using one of the suites which have been available for quite a few years. I use an intermediate suite called "Production Premium". Before that I used another suite called "Web Premium". Those packages were $375 for an upgrade. Full Master Collection was quite a bit more, but it's important to note that I do not have Master Collection, nor do I need it or want it. And I certainly haven't budgeted for it. "

So you are complaining that a suite that came out years back is no longer upgradeable?  Maybe i misunderstand?  If that is the case, why is that different from any other software?  I remember Production Premium......and I agree that Adobe had numerous "suites" etc....confusing at one point to me.....likely part of this new approach  is trying to simplify the packages. Doing so simplifies upgrade paths and customer service requirements for Adobe. understandable.  My math still holds...... the full monty is $599 a year or an individual app is $239 a year if you do not want the whole master suite.

"#2 - CC costs more in two ways. The first is that it requires you to use either the bargain basement package or the full collection. "

Why is that "new"?  You could get slimmed down packs before as well .....or individual apps......or the full monty.  I do see your point if you want say half of the full monty versus just one....but the price is lower for the full monty in that case.

"This is a change in their policy that I do not agree with because it pushes their software back out of my budget. When I'm at work, I use the company's licenses. I own Production Premium for my personal use. Quite frankly, I don't use it all that much at home since I am at work quite a lot. I don't mind paying $375 after nearly 2 years of use to keep my license up to date and my feature set current. It starts to get a bit ridiculous when I am asked to triple that to $600/yr for a bunch of software I don't even want. "

I can see the not wanting to pay for stuff you dont want, but in relaity with any upgrade, you usually do just that.  It is just that you decide when you upgrade.   Well, frankly, I suppose it is partly Adobe deciding that it costs more to keep casual/random users than to lose them. Remember, Adobe needs suustainable revenue to keep product improvemnets coming......your $375 every few years randomly is not enough.  They have made a business decision to offer what they offer. You can still vote with your wallet.

"This screws over everyone who owns PS + AI, everyone who owns PS + Premiere, *DEFINITELY* everyone who owns Pemiere + Speedgrade and AE, etc, all the way down the line. "

But those packages were dated anyways......and again, what software is INDEFINATELY upgradeable?  None that I have ever used.  All have some sort of end of life.  And again, putting aside the fact that Adobe up till now has been one of the most flexible (as far as upgrade paths) packages around, that doesnt mean that Adobe cant change that tact when it stops being a revenue builder for them.

"Do Adobe think that personal users and people who don't need the full package are no longer worth their attention? "

I think that Adobe thinks that they are targetting theior tools toward professionals. Professionals, as you said, will not have much of an issue with this change.  You keep saying there is this huge increase in costs, but I dont see it. Pay a huge amount upfront for the software and then uograde for a few hundred bucks every couple years really does seem to pan out to be similar to the costs in the subscrition plan...UNLESS you are running a pirated or "borrowed" copy of the software to begin with and the initial investment was not an issue.

"The second is that the software breaks if you don't keep paying. This is a half-step shy of extortion. I've got projects that are 2-3 years old and more that I've come back to to pull clips from. With Adobe CC, even if I wasn't using Adobe anymore, I'd need to have paid them $1800 to keep access to those work files for 3 years. "

Yeah, I don;t know about that one.If you "arent using Adobe anymore" after three years, how exactly are you keeping access to those files? You ARE using it by having it installed on yoour machine and by keeping that option open. If you are using another platform, you have the option of exporting the edits to another format and saving the raw files.....that doesnt change.     But to keep access to the Adobe workfiles and timelines? Sure...you need to have the product installed.  That is using it.

"I control software licenses at my work and for my personal use. "

What this new subscription format DOES change is how some people can have the software at work and "borrow" a copy for use at home......I think the subscription plans dont allow that right? SO I can see those folks being ticked, but really its not really a 100% legit use of the software "2nd computer" policy IMHO.

" You say that after 5 years you will have invested $3000 (math please!) "

$599 a year x 5 years is $3,000 for the full month.

"Purchased in 2011, through to 2016 pricing for Production Premium (it wasn't as smooth as that, so there's some assumption that things remain the same) to CS8 for my personal license): Initial buy-in $400 (I got in via educational license). Upgrade in 2013 to CS6. $375. Upgrade in 2015 to CS7 $375. Upgrade in 2017 to CS8. $375 = $1525.

Contrast to CC pricing: $3000."

Yeah, if you got the initial software as an "educational discount" then you got a HUGE break in price for the initial buyin.   Do you still technically qualify for the educational license?  Because they have strict policies on who can get that. Unels you are running a school or are a student you do not qualify....and after your status of "educational" expires, the license is suppsoed to comvert to a standard.  I can see why someone who has been getting the break all along might be ticked...but look at it this way, you got a much better deal than many who paid full price. And you ALSO assumed that you would be able to keep ugrading on that educational license forever....not a good assumption whether for business or personal use...licenses and software are always likely to change.

"#6 - How much Adobe improves over the next 5 years. Spoken like a true newbie. I've been using Adobe for quite a while. "

LOL, friend, I have been using Premiere since just about its first version, when all it was good for was offlining. Been a user since. Up until CS4 or so, it was a sketchy buggy prorgam but I stuck with it even when the MAC geeks were pushing FC as "the only real video tool" because it ran on a MAC.....LOL  I stuck with Premiere on a PC.   The payoff has been CS5/6.   Improvements came in fits and starts as technology changed. No longer needing to have a seperate outboard video processor for editing was a MAJOR advance, and that put places like Matrox almost out of business.

I used SPeedRazor for some time at work years ago.....that was a very very pricey software package and was robust enough but not perfect....it was competing alongside AVID, FC and Premiere.  Those three are still around and Speed Razor is gone.  Why? Because they couldnt keep up with advancements and improve their software fast enough.  The thousands spent on that software and updates went down the crapper when they closed their doors. And by the way, that was a MAJOR sea change .....yet we survived....e had dumped off our sub masters to tape backups and were abel to easily rebuild stuff as needed under Premiere.   That would be the same tact one could use here.....backup and submaster stuff so that if you change editing software you cna rebuild stuff with just some effort.

Newbie indeed.  LOL

"#7 - Where is Adobe pushing us middle guys? Well quite frankly, it's pushing me to other software and to piracy."

Piracy is exactly why the yare doing what the yare doing, plus trimming their support models.

"Spare cash" keeps getting mentioned.......Well, if your main skill.use is PS, that is available for $239 a year or $20 a month.   How much do you spend on your cell bill or other toys? And you cannot spend $20 for a professional grade tool that you could make money with?

"I made a huge effort when I was in Uni and again when I went back to Uni to get legitimate software, but I did use pirate software for a while. I know how it's done and I know how it works. I made the effort to get it legit because I wanted to support Adobe. I felt good about Adobe and wanted to pay them money. I still do. I just don't have enough spare cash to match the requirements of CC. And my feeling towards Adobe has changed. It's not just the price hike that makes it not work. It's also the fact that Adobe has taken away their attention to us middle guys. No Production Suite for you! If you use more than PS/LR, your only choice is to go Full CC. Not only that, but the card they hold in their hand to get us to pay more is basically extortion by holding our own work files for ransom."

Well, isn't that nice of you...to do what everyone else is doing...paying for your software.....LOL....Heads up: No one will give you  medal for being honest....it's what we should all be doing anyways. Using pirated software for evaulation purposes is one thing...but long term?  How do you justfy that is ok?  Instead of stealing Adobe's software, pay for another software that does what you want it to do and is cheaper....if you can find it.

"That's going to make it a lot easier to make the switch away from paying Adobe because I want to into not paying for it because Adobe is being evil. Back in 2012, things were so bright. My software was all fully legit. I had a great phone with Adobe PS Touch and it was awesome. Now Adobe has turned things dark and confrontational. They have long black fingers that are clawing at my wallet with one hand while the other hand wraps its fingers around the throat of my work and personal creative projects. PS Touch has been abandoned and is on autopilot since mid 2013 and the newer version requires CC."

I assume you mean "switch away from Adobe to another piece of software"........well, like i said, if you find software that does what Adobe stuff does cheaper, go for it.  I hear WIndows has a nice built in video editor and paint app...and its FREE wuth windows!  LOL.

Just don't pirate Adobe's stuff and try to justify it by saying they alienated you as a customer so its OK to steal it and complain about how they now want to structure their licneses so as to thwart piracy.....that is the epitome of the entitlement types.  LOL

[davez]

Was just perusing the Adobe site and they are still selling CS6 "indefinately" with "perpetual licensing".

So you CAN indeed kkeep the software forever.  I do think they need to be much clearer on what the purchase of CS6 now gets you......"no more new features" should be in bold.  But I have seen other companies do this as well. End of life on a product. Nothing new. Maybe for Adobe, but not the rest of the world.

I understand your concern as far as the math Eschelar......I used the current prices to do the math again and try and figure it out......(understanding that CS6 will in fact no longer be upgraded feature wise, but pretending it WAS, for argument sake)....and yeah I can see your point...SOME users will be put into a decision situation....but treally not until 5 years out from the initial purchase.

Production premium is $1900.00 US.  Assume for a second they DID offer an update/upgrade every other year for $279 (that amount is debateable).....and you choose to do just one update, in the third year you own it.

That is $1900 in the first year......$279 in the third....... so after three years of use, almost $2200 invested. Youcan stop investing and keep your old tools or upgrade again in year 5 for another $279.....$2,500.

Or buy into the cloud at $600/year for the master collection, getting more than you may need. After 3 years, $1800. After 4 $2400 and after 5 years $3,000...so clearly just in price, assuming you dont do every upgrade with the "perpetual license", you do spend more money after 5 years.

However, this again takes into consideration that  after 5 years and beyondthe software is still "upgradeable" ...Adobe has always had that concept (many software companies do NOT, instead offering discounts for upgrading but more than $279)......

Also -- if you are a current (legit) CS3 or better owner , the CC is just $359 for the first year.....that strings you out a full 5 years as it reduces the intital cost by $250.

Still, that is a very long term outlook.......up until 5 years ends you are ahead of the game as far as out of pocket $$$$ goes.

I also perused some other editing software sites.......I still think Adobe is a real value.....you get a bundle of integrated production tools that work smoothly with each other no questions asked -- premiere, photoshop, audition, (wish encore wasnt leaving).  Not too many other options out there for the price with the featureset it has.

It is what it is.  Complain and yell, accuse adobe of "going black and sinister"  all you like, but Adobe is in business to make money.  Can't fault them for that.   And plenty of legit users will still flock to Adobe for CC.

[cc_merchant]

See if this fits the bill: Just curious: Is CC worth the money and bondage ? | Adobe Community