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[Locked] No perpetual licenses are you serious?

Explorer ,
May 06, 2013 May 06, 2013

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I just head that Adobe was planning to abandon its perpetual license in favor of an on line only rental program. At first I thought that this must be a joke. I have been using adobe products for 18 years. Primarily Photoshop, Illustrator and Indesign. I am currently an owner of CS 6 Master collection and obviously do upgrade my products and have consistently done so over the years. I am not connected to the internet full time and in fact my work computer is never directly connected to the internet. So how does this work? Is adobe now forcing me to connect to the internet - it seems that this is the case.

In regards to upgrade cycles, I dont want to rent my software and be tied to a rental agreement. I want to upgrade when I choose, not rent my software like some kind of loaner program!

I want to purchase the software then not worry about it. For instance when I travel, I dont want to be bogged down with downloads and upgrades chewing up my bandwidth. I have traveled to many places where internet access is very limited. Downloading from a wireless card in China is painful, I dont want to be bogged down with no software or large megabyte downloads costing me a fortune on the other side of the planet.

Adobe I know that I am just one person and you will probably not listen to me but did someone ask? No one asked me about this. How simple could this be - I want to buy the software then use it when I want where I want, is this too much to ask?

Please let me continue to use this software in the way that I have used it for so long. If others wish to have the creative cloud then great! More power to them, don't alienate your other users. Please provide both alternatives.

Best regards - Matt

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Participant ,
Jun 06, 2015 Jun 06, 2015

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You miss the boat entirely mr Adobe.

Adobe keeps packing more features in their products, pushing the price up. For many subscription is a price increase. Why do you think they went to subscription? Because many people didn't upgrade every version.

I don't expect them to give away software, but if Chrysler ONLY made $55k cars they could market to most people with a straight face.

The reality is most PS users use 10% of the features. Elements was a nice option but is just a poor stepchild and the step up to a full license is just way too big.

I can choose to not use their cloud but I can't choose to not see adobes nagging, nor can I avoid the feeling I'm paying for it even if I'm not using it.

I use my cell a lot moe than PS and once paid for, it's paid for. Your "free" arguement like most of your post is bogus.

Sent from my iPhone

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Explorer ,
Jun 06, 2015 Jun 06, 2015

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Not an Adobe employee, just a guy with common sense and a "devil may care" attitude I guess.  LOL.  As an aside, I LOVE how people call other people names for feeling a certain way.  I stopped doing that back in the 5th grade or so but I digress.

No one is forcing anyone to buy Adobe products.

Quite the contrary actually.

Up until this new licensing method, you had to go out and spend around $1500-2000 for the Video production "package"...for instance.  Anyone who "can not afford $10 a month " CERTAINLY cant afford THAT, right? So how did THAT licensing method help those folks?  (Of course it may have been easier to ...ahem...borrow a copy back then..,...but THAT isnt what anyone here is advocating I hope!)

In effect, by offering the package for $60 a month, Adobe is opening up the software for use by far more people who should be able to scrape together $60 a month ($700 a YEAR) if they really want to.

So from an affordability perspective Adobe has made it EASIER to use their software.

That said, I too would rather pay once and be done.   But that is no longer an option, so I will deal with it.  If it doesn't suit my needs I will move on to another product.  We can go on and on about how "right" it is for a compmany to decide to "lease" their software....wont solve anything, they are doing it now. Move on.

You are correct in saying that Chrysler does not ONLY sell $55k cars....of course, I could mention that they also sell no cars below the $20k mark or so and the same argument would apply there...should they also sell a $10k car to suit me?  Or I could also say that manufacturers like Lamborghini or Ferrari ONLY sell vehicles that cost above what the average person pays for a HOUSE and use the same argument, but that would be too obvious, wouldn't it?

Instead I will once again say that the market is a wonderful place.   When (if) one product drops the ball another quickly fills in the hole.  Has Adobe dropped the ball?  If so, take heart, you will see another solution rise rapidly.

As to the argument about "unwanted features"....you infer that perhaps Adobe should offer a "dumbed down" version of its software...sort of like an auto manufacturer offers a lower cost/lower performance version of their products.....a standard Challenger versus a Challenger Hellcat.  TRUE! It would be nice.  But consider that supporting multiple platforms of software gets very expensive and complicated to do, and that costs money.  Considering many of us play with video for at least a small monetary reason,  a reasonable viewer can see why they have chosen to target professionals who like all the new features (I DO!!!) and will pay for them rather than allow their software to be used infinitum as-is where Adobe support is expected but no profit can be made.

There are other software providers out there who would be glad to take your money for lesser product if Adobe is not set up to do so.

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Community Expert ,
Jun 06, 2015 Jun 06, 2015

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>perhaps Adobe should offer a "dumbed down" version of its software

Speaking only of pictures and video, Adobe DOES offer two paths... Premiere Pro by subscription, or Premiere Elements by purchasing a standalone (not Cloud) license, plus Photoshop by subscription or Photoshop Elements standalone... both of which have MANY competing products you may buy, as well as some open source free programs

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Participant ,
Jun 06, 2015 Jun 06, 2015

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You can't get Adobe video package for $10 month. Either you don't know what Adobe charges or you are intentionally being obtuse. No one here argues that Adobe software should be free or cheap, but that for many things it is the best (partly because Adobe has bought out a lot of the competition), then has used their market position, some say monopoly. To then squeeze its customers.

Sent from my iPhone

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Explorer ,
Jun 06, 2015 Jun 06, 2015

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I've stated my case above a number of times it boils down this. Adobe is forcing a licensing model on it's customers, and in the process forgot we are the customer, you do NOT force anything on your customers. Microsoft for all it's bumbling mistakes was at least smart enough to realize not everyone wants it's cloud based Office365 and still offers standalone licensing. After 25 years of working in IT systems and security at a tech and management level I can say with absolute certainty the cloud benefits are overwhelmingly in the favor of companies, it does little for the end user. The advantage of lower costs today will become the threat of higher prices tomorrow, the sale is a Trojan horse ruse.

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Participant ,
Jun 06, 2015 Jun 06, 2015

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davez wrote:


Take the auto market.  I want a brand new Hellcat Challenger at some $55k plus.   But I cannot afford it.  And they won't take my arm and a leg for it....LOL....   Should Chrysler give it to me or offer it to me for 1/4 the cost just to be nice?

.....<snip>.....

Manufacturers of ANY product make the product to make money.  People don't expect free cars or free phones or free cigarettes......and in the latter case, the product makes you an ADDICT who HAS to have the product daily.at some $5-8 per pack, with some people smoking a pack a day just to slowly poison themselves. 


But for some reason, many people view software, books, music and such as something different.....thinking these items should be shared freely (stealing) on the interweb.   It costs money to get a band together and record a song....to write and publish a book...and to develop , write , market and support software.  You wouldn't walk into a car dealership and demand the keys to a brand new car as "your right" would you?  Why does ANYONE feel its OK to demand free or reduced rate or infinitely-extending licenses for software?


If I walk into a Chrysler dealership and say "I am only gonna drive the Hellcat a few times out of the month, as a hobby"...does that change Chrysler's investment into their product?


People say "I am just a hobbyist so I cant afford the cost (of a professional tool)."  Well, the answer there is "find a cheaper tool for your hobby or change hobbies".

.......

Some of your ideas make sense, but the analogies above don't really hold up. You can't logically compare software to cigarettes because it isn't an expendable item. People expect to be able to buy it up front and not pay for new models every year if they don't need it.

The Hellcat Challenger might be out of most people's normal price range, but they might want to save up to buy one. But what if Dodge was like Adobe and decided that you could only rent a Hellcat Challenger for $1,200 a month. No option to buy it to own. The upside would be that you get a new model every couple years, but the downside is that if you missed a payment after paying $60,000 over the years, they would take it away from you.

So hobbyists may not be able to justify $10 a month forever and ever, but they may save up and buy a version then use it for 8 years or so. And that is what Adobe has taken away. Not to mention Adobe is the only company to do that. Everyone else experimenting with subscriptions still offer a version-locked perpetual license for those who want to save up and buy once.

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Explorer ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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"Some of your ideas make sense, but the analogies above don't really hold up. You can't logically compare software to cigarettes because it isn't an expendable item. People expect to be able to buy it up front and not pay for new models every year if they don't need it.

The Hellcat Challenger might be out of most people's normal price range, but they might want to save up to buy one. But what if Dodge was like Adobe and decided that you could only rent a Hellcat Challenger for $1,200 a month. No option to buy it to own. The upside would be that you get a new model every couple years, but the downside is that if you missed a payment after paying $60,000 over the years, they would take it away from you.

So hobbyists may not be able to justify $10 a month forever and ever, but they may save up and buy a version then use it for 8 years or so. And that is what Adobe has taken away. Not to mention Adobe is the only company to do that. Everyone else experimenting with subscriptions still offer a version-locked perpetual license for those who want to save up and buy once."

Whether you "buy" or "lease" a Hellcat, if you stop paying they DO take it away....takes a COUPLE missed payments, but its GONE and you DO lose what you have put into it.

But....Ok, lets not use the car analogy or the cigarette analogy since you say that is not the same thing. Lets use something more appropriate.  Cameras.

Are you still using the same video camera you bought 8 years ago? Highly doubtful as everything has gone HD.  if you are still using SD stuff I have a couple NIIIIICE cameras I will sell to you!

And would you expect your 8 year old camera to be able to be upgraded to HD "cheap" or "free" ???  I would argue that you couldnt even expect it to still be FUNCTIONING necessarily after 8 years of hard use...... Cameras are pretty much as expendable as much as cigarettes are. , really...cigarettes are burnt up and give ya cancer, and cameras become obsolete as new standards and features become the norm though they have given you something much better than cancer over the years.....  Takes longer, but cameras are expendable. I know NO professional -- or even hobbyist -  still using a camera from 8 years ago except for the occasional odd SD job or as a backup or effect camera for something.....

Why, then would it be expected that a software product be able to be used for 8 years without upgrade?   I suppose its possible....never upgrade your workflow, never upgrade the OS, never add new features.

But how, pray tell, if someone decides to go that route...the hobbyist for instance.....how does that constitute a good business model for Adobe, then?   If customers only bought new software every 8 years, Adobe would be out of business unless they charged very high costs for it (like in the beginning, if you have been around since the beginning of NLE).  Luckily most professional  folks LIKE to upgrade and get the new features and workflows that help us do our jobs and projects. In the past these upgrades came when they came and you paid for them, usually at a heft y price tag.  You either upgraded and ate the cost or you kicked the can down the road til the next one, but you knew it was inevitable.  And you paid it. That in turn gives Adobe the capital they need to continue to develop new features and workflow improvements.  They constantly develop their software and move forward with it. They need users to pay for that development.....hell, just to keep the lights on to support what they have already built.

Now, instead of paying $2k up front and then another $500 for upgrades every couple years to be able to use the newest OS or get the newest feature set or to support a new tape format, you pay a set rate every month. Predictable.  And if you decide to close shop, go to another platform or whatever at some point, you cut bait and walk away even if you just upgraded two weeks ago.

Yes, for those who want to "borrow" the software or for those who NEVER upgrade for 8 years it doesnt work out monetarily.  But I ask -- if YOU were in business, would you rely on and be worried about supporting the "customer" you only see once every decade?  

You can argue that you are being forced to buy upgrades you do not want or need "right now".....but eight years from now, when you finally decide to upgrade, where do you think those new upgrades came from? From paying customers who see the value in the upgrades NOW....those upgrade fees pay for the features you will want 8 years from now when you finally decide to upgrade.

Again, its VERY simple.

If you do not like Adobe's new billing scheme...for whatever reason...cant afford the $60 a month......disagree with it......feel like Adobe is the big bad meanie stealing your money....or feel that you are "entitled" to use a piece of software for a decade , expect support and offer nothing in return......WALK AWAY and go with another company who will support that (old fashioned) approach.

This is more an 'entitlement" issue than anything...people feel like they are entitled to use everything for free anymore....let someone else pay til they want to.

Catering to the entitlement crowd doesnt support ANY business model, at least not a successful one.  Aside from, of course, the US government.  LOL

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Participant ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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Oh, I get it, you are just a TROLL!

it is simple. Adobe can charge what they want and I can walk away if I don't like it, but I can also bitch about a company that tries to tell me how wonderful they are, all the while ignoring their customers and forcing a particular business model on them instead of giving them a choice.

You don't need to respond, you've not added any content to this discussion

That isn't already in the Adobe sales lit.

Sent from my iPhone

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Explorer ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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mgg@mac.com hit on the head in the next post down, it's about valuing and respecting your customers. One of my first full time IT jobs was rep'ing Adobe as a tech support agent from 1992 to 1996. Allow me to put this into perspective, I've used:

  • Photoshop since version 3.05
  • Illustrator 4.1
  • Premier 3
  • Acrobat 1.0
  • Framemaker 5 with SGML
  • Webmill 1.0 until it died and Dreamweaver when Macromedia owned it and after Adobe bought them.
  • Aldus Pagemaker 1.2 on a 286 Compaq luggable with an argon gas monitor, back when you had to look up the font code because you couldn't see fonts on the screen! Adobe bought Aldus, and later turned Pagemaker into InDesign to which I upgraded the entire time! I have a 30 plus year relationship with Aldus Pagemaker to Adobe InDesign!

For decades I have invested my money, time, and education into Adobe products, that is a relationship which any wise company would respect and value because people like me are the best testimonial advertisement they can have. This is something you get taught in a business 101 class. Adobe violated that relationship with most of it's old school customers, it told us thanks for making us successful but now that we are; we no longer need or value your input, we'll just find a new market. A good company never tells it's customers get on the boat or go somewhere else.

The problem could have been avoided easily by Adobe, all they had to do is offer perpetual licensing for those who want it, and let those who want the cloud buy the cloud just like Microsoft does today. Adobe however shot themselves in the foot, they under priced the cloud so much to attract new customers that they made it impossible to sell perpetual licences without a backlash of anger which you seeing here on this thread. Myself I upgraded my Master Collection from CS5 to CS6 and paid $1080.00 for it, a couple months later I discover perpetual licenses are dead and the entire Master Collection is available for $50.00 a month or $600.00 year! Oh fantastic I had just paid the equivalent of almost 2 damn years of the cloud only a few months earlier, what was my consolation prize for this? I was offered a paltry 3 month membership to the CC I was not interested in or I could have $109.00 copy of Lr 5, I took Lr, and then about a month later it they dropped the price to $69.00 adding insult to my financial injury. Overnight Adobe turned me from one of it's largest fans praising it's acolytes into one of it's most angry and dissatisfied customers.

Then people like you walk into conversations like this without any appreciation of the aforementioned and tell the old customers to get over it as if the issue was somehow as trite as dropping my ice-cream on the sidewalk.

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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‌yeah,  don't let him rile you up.

based on what I'm seeing here, Adobe still has us as customers, if they are willing to do something like stop upgrade protection if we stop paying for the subscription and give us an opportunity to pay for a perpetual license(at a discount based on the duration of the subscription that has already paid...  [it doesn't even have to be 100%, they could claim that some of the subscription went to cloud services that are not offsetting the cost of a perpetual license]) of the version that we are using at the point of stopping.

This thread is good feedback.  If I didn't still care about Adobe, I wouldn't post here...  I would just simply do something else.   The worst thing that the mods can do is remove/hide/lockdown this thread.   All of the feedback, gone.   I wouldn't care anymore...   it would probably end up on Reddit on the front page with an archive from the wayback machine.

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Participant ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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davez wrote:

Are you still using the same video camera you bought 8 years ago? Highly doubtful as everything has gone HD.  if you are still using SD stuff I have a couple NIIIIICE cameras I will sell to you!

From 2000 until 2007 I did have nice SD cameras that I used before upgrading to HD. Most people don't upgrade their cameras every two years or enough to justify rentals. And I'm sure when 4K becomes the standard, I'll upgrade again, but again, most people don't upgrade their cameras every 2-3 years until you get into really high dollar productions where only the best will do. I'm just guessing, but that market is probably a small fraction of Adobe's customer base.

So regarding hobbyists. Adobe is essentially throwing away half their customer base by alienating most of the hobbyists who upgraded every few versions. I'm sure they will get a few of the version skippers to adopt the subscription model (courtesy of being an industry standard), but basically they will gradually change their community from 12 million overall users to 5 million regular subscribers (one third of which is probably Photoshop/Lightroom subscribers). I think by the end of this year Adobe will know if their new model is worth it. Most CS6 users will begin to feel a need for upgrading to something and will either make the move to CC subscriptions or move to other software. If the CC subscriptions start to plateau we'll know it was the latter and if Adobe maintains it's course (with only 5 million subscribers or less) I don't expect them to keep the same thriving community with tutorials and training practically everywhere you look.They will become a wilted shell of what they were over the last twenty years.


But this subscription only option makes me wonder a few things. First, is Adobe so bad at managing it's budget that it can't stay in business under a perpetual license model, unlike like thousands of other software companies who do it successfully? If that is not the case, then are they expecting their regular upgraders to start dropping like flies due to product maturity and lack of new game-changing features? If neither of those are the case, then it seems stupid to intentionally kick away half your user base just to explore a new way of selling software.

Adobe's model is like a recent problem I had with a on-hold messaging vendor. They weren't making enough money from one-time purchases so, when we called them for an updated message this last time, they had moved to a licensing model for every custom recorded message. It still cost $300 for a new recording, but then an extra $99 per year to continue using the same recording, with no extra benefits or updates. We moved to a new vendor. It isn't exactly the same as Adobe since Adobe gives upgrades, but the underlying principle is there. They are attempting to put themselves in a position to not have to work for their money. That might be what every person or company really wants, but I'm not inclined to pay people continuously for work they did four years ago if it hasn't been touched since. Nor am I inclined to pay people for things I don't need just to keep them in business.


Creative Cloud subscriptions would fit the bill of what I would pay for if they hosted web browser versions of each application and/or if they offered stand alone perpetual licensing numbers with each CC version release. i.e. give a buy out option to let people continue to use a fixed version of the local software without a subscription.

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Participant ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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I am using an 8 year old hd cam, because it suites my needs well. I'll buy a newer cam when I NEED one, not when canon or Adobe tells me I have to BUY their latest. I don't pay monthly to use it.

Sent from my iPhone

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Participant ,
Jun 07, 2015 Jun 07, 2015

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I used to be concerned about Adobe going the CC route but now with such fantastic new graphics software coming out from competitors I hardly think about it anymore.

Affinity Photo Beta

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Community Beginner ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Dear Adobe,

Count me as another paying customer you will lose if you follow through with this plan. Your software is not the only option.

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Contributor ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Thumbs down on removing customer's "CHOICE." I don't have any interest in 2gb of cloud storage. I generate 2- 2.5gb PSD files daily. And could not imagine the time it would take to upload download. Nor am I interesting in sharing my work on social media.

A good company, cares about the needs of all their customers. And tries to deliver the products that work for them. Let the consumer decide what best suits their requirements.

Imagine if Apple said, we no longer sell computers or tablets. You can just rent them from us. And once a month you need to bring them to an Apple store to re authorize the device.

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May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Hi Picturequest,

You actually get 20gb of free syncing, but you don't have to use this. You are still saving your files on your computer, but have the option to back them up.

Second, with the new launch you will only need to connect to the internet once a year to renew your subscription, not every month.

There is a lot of confusion around this launch, but you can get answers to these questions and more here: http://terrywhite.com/5-myths-about-adobe-creative-cloud/

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Participant ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Even your own links says that it has to connect every month :   " You computer does have to connect to the internet once a month to verify that your membership is still current". The confusion appears to be yours.

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Community Expert ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Alec Molloy wrote:

Second, with the new launch you will only need to connect to the internet once a year to renew your subscription, not every month.

Can you provide an Adobe-authorized link confirming that? It contradicts all other Adobe advice.

All other info online, including the Cloud FAQ, says that you have to be connected at least once a month.

"You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days.  However, you'll be able to use products for 3 months (99 days) even if you're offline."

Unfortunately, random posts like this perpetuate confusion.

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Adobe Employee ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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John Waller wrote:

Alec Molloy wrote:

Second, with the new launch you will only need to connect to the internet once a year to renew your subscription, not every month.

Can you provide an Adobe-authorized link confirming that? It contradicts all other Adobe advice.

All other info online, including the Cloud FAQ, says that you have to be connected at least once a month.

"You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days.  However, you'll be able to use products for 3 months (99 days) even if you're offline."

Unfortunately, random posts like this perpetuate confusion.

The app will try to connect once a month. If it can't it will continue to try periodically for 99 days (soon to be 180). The app will have to be online sometime over that 99 day period in order to validate the license.

http://www.adobe.com/go/cc_faq

Hope that helps clarify.

mike chambers

mesh@adobe.com

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Community Expert ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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That's how I've always understood it, Mike.

So the "once a year" comment from Alec Molloy is not correct?

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Participant ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Considering that I paid $1,200 to upgrade from CS5 to CS6 (Master Collection), and those kind of upgrades are usually 18-24 months apart, the subscription price is about the same as the upgrades.

What Adobe is really doing is implementing a future method where they can essentially disable your copy of CS5 if you don't upgrade to CS6. They won't be giving it hard version numbers anymore, but it is essentially the same effect. If you refuse to pay the $600 upgrade fee every year you loose access to the previous software.

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Participant ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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My history with Adobe was by purchasing Photoshop 4. Somewhere around there I also purchased Dreamweaver 4. Then I eventually upgraded to Photoshop 7.  Then CS2 Web Edition which of course included Adobe version of Dreamweaver. Then I upgraded to CS4 Master Collection, then CS5 MC, and finally CS6 MC. It wasn't until CS4 that I really started making money with the suite after gradually learning the tools over the years. If this subscription ONLY model had been implemented back then I likely wouldn't have had the resources to learn.

Adobe may weed out the apathetic upgraders with this move, allowing them to give better attention to the serious customers, but I fear they may also diminish their talent pool. In the long run this may actually be good for competition. If other companies will step up to the plate with comparable tools and can pull in the hobbyists and amature learners, then those companies will have a leg in the door once those hobbyists and amatures start working and using what they know.

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Participant ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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For me the numbers are far from a wash. I only have Photoshop and

Lightroom,

LR will still be offered in the old way - at least for version 5 (so far $79

upgrade). So for LR $79 once every 18 months vs what is it $30/month for

CC = $540 for the same 18 months. Or even if it's $20/mo that's $360.

Assuming I upgrade PS every release (which I don't) that is $200 every 18

months, vs $540 at $30/mo or $360 at $20/mo. They'd need to knock it down

to $11/mo for break even with upgrading every 18 month, and if you're on an

every other release cycle (like I am), it would need to go down to $5.50/mo

to cost the same. - no where near where the current prices are.

Dan

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New Here ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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It is not so much the cost as the fact that some us have thousands of PSD files that can only be open as long as we pay the subscription fee. I'm lucky, I have CS6, but others may not have a CS app on their hard drive. They will have to pay a monthly fee for a lifetime if they wish to open a PSD file.

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May 11, 2013 May 11, 2013

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Yes, apologies, I misspoke.

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