Deprecated SB panels are back!

[BenPleysier]

Has anyone noticed the server side panels are back in Dreamweaver 19.0 11193 Build?

Preran​, is this a mistake or is it a sign of things to come.

[BenPleysier]

osgood_  wrote

BenPleysier   wrote

osgood_    wrote

Humm so far the websites  lve seen created in Wappler are embrassing and l personally wouldnt have the afront to even show them they are that poor, both visually and coding wise. I think thats not particularly down to Wappler, just the kind of person that gravites towards that kind of program, usually neither coders or designers, the worst of both worlds at the moment but l would hope that would change if more graphic designers jump aboard.......at the moment l have no concern to be concerned about the pizza maker.

This is so indicative of a lilliputian mind ready to denigrate others with fallacious statements.

Its an opinion based on what I have so far seen to date and not false. If you can provide links to other sites built by users of the program then please do so to justify your views. I wont post the 3 that I know of but Im sure if I did a good percentage might agree with me. I have no wish to denigrate others and have actually given praise were its due when I see the few websites which have been posted in this particular forum which I would consider to be of a professional standard visually. Its not my fault you seem to have low expections.

If that is the best that you can come up with to substantiate your claims, then I rest my case.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

osgood_   wrote

BenPleysier    wrote

osgood_     wrote

Humm so far the websites  lve seen created in Wappler are embrassing and l personally wouldnt have the afront to even show them they are that poor, both visually and coding wise. I think thats not particularly down to Wappler, just the kind of person that gravites towards that kind of program, usually neither coders or designers, the worst of both worlds at the moment but l would hope that would change if more graphic designers jump aboard.......at the moment l have no concern to be concerned about the pizza maker.

This is so indicative of a lilliputian mind ready to denigrate others with fallacious statements.

Its an opinion based on what I have so far seen to date and not false. If you can provide links to other sites built by users of the program then please do so to justify your views. I wont post the 3 that I know of but Im sure if I did a good percentage might agree with me. I have no wish to denigrate others and have actually given praise were its due when I see the few websites which have been posted in this particular forum which I would consider to be of a professional standard visually. Its not my fault you seem to have low expections.

If that is the best that you can come up with to substantiate your claims, the I rest my case.

Well you have hardly been convincing otherwise. I've given an account of which I think is adequate to base my opinions. So sorry you're not happy with it.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea  wrote

If that isn't a passive aggressive responsive to a question, I don't know what is.  

I can't take anyone serious as a web developer who has time to update their personal web site. I mean, if your skills are in such demand, then how do you have the free time to update your site?

If you look at mine, you are seeing a site from 2002, (the content is from a series of articles I wrote for a magazine in 1991) with the only changes since then being experimenting with html5 semantics, and letting a couple of interns play with the menu system.

I would much prefer someone 'show' their skills by writting tutorials for developers to use, (+1 for Nancy in that respect). I have seen to many 'so called experts' over the years use or have developed for them templates, that they then present 'as their own',

[osgood_]

Yeah dont get me started on templates..seems few these days produce anything that is original. There are some good template designs out there but most are very poorly coded for Bootstrap/Wordpress. Personally lve never found  templates useful  for any of my clients as their content and images are so far removed from the few lines a template shows coupled with the glossy images that it always looks nothing like the original template by the time one has finished or certainly a disappointing version of it. I always attempt to come up with bespoke designs which fit the content and imsges l have to use rather than try and shoehorn content into a template that doesnt really work.

[osgood_]

Do you seriously think that anyone that has to resort to using an app such as the one we are discussing is going to even know what coding should look like. If they dont know after 20 plus years then lm hardly going to change their opinion in a few minutes, especially as l cant show them a website built with Bootstrap.

[pziecina]

-Michele  wrote

Dreamweaver was born to allow people with low programming knowledge to build a full website, including all the necessary server behaviours.

Now Adobe has completely changed its target audience (coders) and... I don't like it anymore.

Interesting take.

Dw in its original promotional ads, was not for those who had no coding knowledge, it was primarily to make building web sites using tables for layout easier for everyone, (just about every site back then used html tables, complete with lots of spacer gifs). It could also be used with html 3 and in-line styling, (css although originaly intended for use with html 3+ was not developed far enough to be included).

Server side code was also being developed, (mainly pearl or c scripts) then MS realeased what is now classic asp, which was mainly in MS's then web development offerings, but was included via users extensions in Dw about 1997, along with extensions for php, (still in its infancy then) eventually Macromedia adopted much of the code from user created extensions into its SB's.

Later on css became the standard for layouts, but none coders who previously used programs like fireworks and Ps to generate table layouts, were 'given' a feature which they could use, (ap divs driven) which created the myth Dw must be for none coders, because it generated such bad code.

At no time was Dw 'just for none coders', it became so to many people because of its extensions, such as those by PVII, which enabled those with little coding knowledge to continue producing web sites, which was fine, but then came mobile devices, which changed everything.

Dw tried to help none coders, but like many web editors, it has taken a 'death wish' course since rwd became a requirement, and the death of flash, (which was the only reason Adobe acquired Macromedia) was probably why Dw became an 'also ran' option to many.

[osgood_]

I fully expect the spacer.gif to make a return at some point, why not, we have more divs now than ever before as a result of frameworks and more bloated code in general.......seems only logical to me to try and find  space to include 50 or so of those.

[williamj31276244]

Yes of course that's what you'd say.

And pizza makers-policemen-taxi-drivers are able to deliver a better ux tan you.

Oh, funny thing.

[pziecina]

williamj31276244  wrote

Yes of course that's what you'd say.

Where is the link to your web site?

Mine is in my profile, (if you are interested, I'm not) and as I am not interested in 'getting approval or work', I will not bother posting it here.

[pziecina]

Not a reply to anyone in particular.

We always appear to come back to the same disagreements, and loose the original topic along the way. Can we not for a change just say that code is good but not always quick, Wappler is better than Dw generated code, (and certainly better than Muse code) but may not be acceptable for large teams, (greater than 10) for which certain conditions and coding standards will and must apply, (but those standards may not be the standard of an individual or a small team) otherwise the chaos of different coding styles can destroy a project.

Then we can get to discussing individual topics related to the web, like accessibility, html5 semantics vs all div (does it realy make a difference if aria is used correctly), css driven components vs js driven. Then of course the big question, that I think users of Dw's SB's will encounter in the comming months, which will probably come down to the question of, how long should the client expect a site to last, is it longer than 5 years before a redesign/build, or does it depend on cost, (I'm thinking about the support for php 5x ending, and the need to recode SB's) and if it is less than a certain length of time, who pays for the rebuild?

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Not a reply to anyone in particular.

We always appear to come back to the same disagreements, and loose the original topic along the way. Can we not for a change just say that code is good but not always quick, Wappler is better than Dw generated code, (and certainly better than Muse code) but may not be acceptable for large teams, (greater than 10) for which certain conditions and coding standards will and must apply, (but those standards may not be the standard of an individual or a small team) otherwise the chaos of different coding styles can destroy a project.

My question would be why should standards or acceptability be any different for a single developer or a team of 10? To me its all about having a passion for the job you are doing, assuming it is your main line of income of course, not the individual or team doing it - both should be equally as enthusiastic to learn good workflows, basic coding etc. Anyone else is free to use or do what they like, its of no concequence to the profession. Why should it always come down to cheap and cheerful.....or I cant really be bothered attitude?

As for Wappler coding being better than DW generated code how, why? I dont know what code DW generates, does it generate any code, I havent used it for some time now, certainly not to generate any code?\

pziecina  wrote

Then we can get to discussing individual topics related to the web, like accessibility, html5 semantics vs all div (does it realy make a difference if aria is used correctly), css driven components vs js driven. Then of course the big question, that I think users of Dw's SB's will encounter in the comming months, which will probably come down to the question of, how long should the client expect a site to last, is it longer than 5 years before a redesign/build, or does it depend on cost, (I'm thinking about the support for php 5x ending, and the need to recode SB's) and if it is less than a certain length of time, who pays for the rebuild?

Well anyone who has used the SBs in DW over that last 3 years and may even still be using them is not a professional in my opinion. The writing was on the wall back then and if they are still using them and want to be taken seriously, well that leaves me speechless. Css driven, js driven, neither is going away so I have little opinions about using one or the other personally. I guess you would try and work css in where appropriate but its not something that is crital on my list............we all have different points of importance, so what is important to one is not necessarily important to someone else.........as we know

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

My question would be why should standards or acceptability be any different for a single developer or a team of 10?

I don't know if you have worked or managed large teams, (10-100 normally) but it is necessary to actually write down the standards required, which covers everything from simple naming conventions to formatting of the code. It is even necessary to keep a register of function/class names, how they work and how to expand. Even css id's and classes are registered in order to prevent duplication.

It is the same when developing visual elements of a site/app, in that the organisations style guide must be adhered to, with any items that cannot be being registered for approval before they are used.

Somehow I cannot see an individual requiring the same workflow, or a team of 5-6 people. Coming from an aerospace background documentation is second nature, and even individuals or small teams may find documenting a sites code helpfull, especially if there is planned future work. At one time comments were recommended in production code, (stripped out in final version) but over the last few years, (along with the rise of frameworks) there use has declined.

(I think I will start an action group to bring back comments.)

The reason I suggest moving on to 'other topics', is because I have no interest in what Wappler is doing. Which leaves me out of the underlying discussion, (and it is obvious there is one). I have no interest in discussing how other programs work anymore, as it is obvious there is no point in doing so, (no one even tries to defend Dw) so that leaves me with code unless anyone would like to discuss Dw CS6 or VS Pro?

[osgood_]

Regardless of size of team, 10 or 1, both should show an understanding of what they are involved in is what lm trying to express. If youre not committed to the cause its very likely that youre going to be more prone to take avenues that are widely regarded as being somewhat debatable by those that adhere to a structured, well documented approach which is set out by those that govern an industry to try and keep standards high and out of the hands of crooks.

I dont think anyone is trying to defend DW anymore because whats the point - no one at Adobe listens.Have you just read the road map for 2019 its hilarious compared to whst Wappler is offering. As much as l disaprove of it the makers are at least liaising with their users and bringing stuff to the program on a weekly basis, not once per year........so there ya go thats why no one is a bit interesred in DW, its a dinosaur in its current form.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Regardless of size of team, 10 or 1, both should show an understanding of what they are involved in is what lm trying to express. If youre not committed to the cause its very likely that youre going to be more prone to take avenues that are widely regarded as being somewhat debatable by those that adhere to a structured, well documented approach which is set out by those that govern an industry to try and keep standards high and out of the hands of crooks.

The problem is deciding if one should follow standards, and then which. The Wikipedia entry on 'best coding practices' -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_coding_practices

would apply to programs, but the question is if a web site would fall under that definition, (ecomm, or large app almost certainly).

The comment and article at the end, 'we don't need a coding standard ...' is the one web developers should read.