Dreamweaver into the 2020's.

[pziecina]

As many may know, myself, Birnou, (and others behind the sceen) have been asking about Dw's future. Well the blog post is up, and the discussion is ready to begin.

The post was in the 'output error' discussion and said -

We appreciate your feedback. We are actively working on improving Dreamweaver to meet your web development needs.

Here is an overview of improvements we are working on for upcoming Dreamweaver updates in 2019 and 2020.

Kindly have a look into the blog post and share your thoughts.

Regards

And was posted by Dw team member - yshivaprasad,

[pziecina]

My reply -

I was pleased to read that code hinting would be for ALL html5, css and js, but I would be interested to know what is ment by 'ALL'. As html5 contains much more than most people think, and in my experiance, much more than the Dw team think. Plus css and the js api's, at what stage in the recomendation process will a spec be included in code hints, as many specs are WD's but stable and well supported by browsers.

Dw's code editor could use a lot of work, but the little information provided does not allow me to make any judgement. I see no mention of a stand alone css prefixer though, which as I have said previously makes Dw a 'do not use' for many.

As for the pre-release, and testing. As I have said previously 'why should I bother'.

I found some members of the CAB and prerelease insulting, and lacking in knowledge, (though not all). Anyone thinking they can influence anything, forget it. Replys or discussions with any Dw team member are now none existant. And lastly, whats in it for me?

I don't use CC, so any 'here is a years CC subscription' is worthless.

[Brad Lawryk]

It's the beginning of the end for Dreamweaver. Glad I have moved on over a year ago. 😞

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Brad+Lawryk  wrote

It's the beginning of the end for Dreamweaver. Glad I have moved on over a year ago. 😞

As I discovered in the pre-release, some well thought of advisors to the Dw team, (and a few of the team) don't think none Dw users should have a say in Dw's future. I'd have thought that those who gave up on Dw are the people to ask what is wrong.

[Brad Lawryk]

I think the lack of traffic (new posts) in the forums also speaks volumes for the state of Dreamweaver. It's just not what it once was. Sad really. 😞

[B i r n o u]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Brad+Lawryk  a écrit

I think the lack of traffic (new posts) in the forums also speaks volumes for the state of Dreamweaver. It's just not what it once was. Sad really. 😞

I did a call some weeks ago on the alpha forum to see who was present there... I recieved 1 answer...

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

I did a call some weeks ago on the alpha forum to see who was present there... I recieved 1 answer...

I don't know if you remember my 'Is there anybody out there' post, to which only you replied. But I was later told that over 20 acp's had signed up to the alpha pre-release.

The other problem with Dw is that they are catering for beginners and casual users, and not web designers/developers. Creating for the modern web requires one to know what is happening, and at least try to guess what is going to happen. Standing still for a year or more in the profession these days, means that catching up is very difficult, and Dw has stood still for years.

Even simple things like srcset, and base 64 encoding have had feature requests filed since 2013, with Dw ignoring them.

I don't know if the Dw team is to blame, or Adobe in general, but in the end the 'who is responsible' is no longer important. What is important is that they stop looking at wed design/development as a side-line to other professions for which adobe produces products.

[B i r n o u]

I have asked for a discussion with the appropriate person, to see what are the indoor thinking.

are we waiting our time ?

does DW ready to be on shelves ?

does Adobe have others plan and bullets under cover ?

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

I have asked for a discussion with the appropriate person, to see what are the indoor thinking.

are we waiting our time ?

does DW ready to be on shelves ?

does Adobe have others plan and bullets under cover ?

To answer your questions -

yes, you are wasting your time.

Dw is not being shelved, just ignored.

Plans, what are they.

[pziecina]

Just wondering if anyone can answer a question.

What does the blog post mean, in the O.S. compatability updates, when it says -

"Chromium based Edge browser"

The reason I ask is that I cannot see any compatability problems. After all it is a browser, so what has to be compatible with Dw?

[Brad Lawryk]

pziecina  wrote

What does the blog post mean, in the O.S. compatability updates, when it says -

"Chromium based Edge browser"

It doesn't mean anything. Much like 90% of the content in the blog post. Just using big words to sound impressive.

[pziecina]

Thanks Brad.

I could not see any reason for a compatability problem. I even have the Edge Dev preview installed but thought I may have missed some update or other in Dw CC versions, that somehow causes a problem, as my Edge preview even works with CS6.

[pziecina]

F.I.O.

Just in case anyone is interested all the old, (and some new) items from Adobe web platform and other Adobe open source tech. Can be found at -

http://opensource.adobe.com

The reason I looked is that Brackets has had a basic js debugger for years, but Dw does not. So I looked into what was happening with it.

[Brad Lawryk]

Maybe the powers that be at Adobe are on to something? If their target market/user is the CC subscriber in general perhaps Dreamweaver is meeting the needs of that market. What scares me most is that the users that care most about the future of Dreamweaver (long time users such as ourselves in this thread) are no longer using Dreamweaver and have moved on  to other solutions.

So, that brings up the question; if we no longer use it why do we care so much? And does our opinion really matter?

[B i r n o u]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Brad+Lawryk  a écrit

So, that brings up the question; if we no longer use it why do we care so much? And does our opinion really matter?

this is in line with #7 question

[pziecina]

I think it matters because we all remember how easy Dw was to use.

I used it mainly to create quick and easy concepts, that I could show others. And VS Pro as my production code editor. The reason I prefered Dw, (CS versions) was that along with fireworks, going between the two was so easy.

It was also very easy to create extensions to update code hints, and add features I thought would help me.

[osgood_]

Unless you are a top exponent or an amatuer I don't really think it matters what editor you use these days.

Most developers, like myself, crank out your average website which can be produced in anything. I doubt many use any debugging tools, etc I personally haven't found reason to do so because Im not creating complex applications.

Those who do create complex applications will use something like phpstorm or get one of the plugins for sublime/vs code etc, they are covered.

Those who cant code and dont produce complex applications will use wix or one of the many builders.

I feel you're only dependent on a particular editor in certain circumstances.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Unless you are a top exponent or an amatuer I don't really think it matters what editor you use these days.

If you are working for a large company or organisation, then the editor to use is normally decided for you.

osgood_  wrote

Those who cant code and dont produce complex applications will use wix or one of the many builders.

That's the message many are still denying. The days of producing small sites as a living, are I think numbered, as we have discussed before. The problem, (or maybe not) for Dw users, is that too many still think of wix, and similar site builders as they use to be, and not as they are now.

Even 1&1's site builder offers individuals a personal help service, in which the inexperianced can have someone walk them through the process of building the site, and adding plug-ins as required. Dw on the other hand have made everything look overcomplicated for those who only want a simple site for their buisness, and for plug-ins they must then find them for themselves.

For Adobe CC subscribers, Dw may be all they require if it was not for its limitations. In that the use of bootstrap, scss and git, are not features that make visual site creation, (even with a little code knowledge) any simpler for them.  How many CC subscribers look at Dw and think pre/post-processors and git are features they should use.

Application developers are probably not typically Adobe CC subscribers, simply because Adobe offers nothing they require. Yes, they may use the experiance cloud products, but Dw does not offer any support for them, so another editor is required anyway.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

How many CC subscribers look at Dw and think pre/post-processors and git are features they should use.

2 I would estimate and that may be being over generous. For the majority of DW users those particular features are unapplicable in my opinion. Many would assume git is just a swear word.

The only aspect why the non coder would consider using DW is becasue it has some kind of visual workflow. Bootstrap is of little help really as it doesn't have a good visual way of deploying it unlike other applications, plugins are required at additional cost where other applications have built in solutions at no-extra cost.

That leaves it in no-mans-land.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Many would assume git is just a swear word.

Don't swear at me .

(I wonder if that is something only understood in the u/k?)

In many ways I feel sorry for the Dw team, simply because what they are doing, may be all they are allowed to do.

We all like to think we are important, and that our opinions matter, but in the wider world, they do not. If an Adobe director had come into the organisation I worked for, and started telling us what was wrong with the application, we would have just nodded, said their opinions are important to us, thanked them, then proceaded to do what we were going to do anyway.

Which is probably what Adobe and the Dw team are doing.

Asking for opinions and acting on them, are two completely separate things.

That's why I prefer this discussion, as even though the impression in the other one is that the Dw team are reading it and taking notice of what is said, they are not.

[B i r n o u]

pziecina  a écrit

In many ways I feel sorry for the Dw team, simply because what they are doing, may be all they are allowed to do.

We all like to think we are important, and that our opinions matter, but in the wider world, they do not. If an Adobe director had come into the organisation I worked for, and started telling us what was wrong with the application, we would have just nodded, said their opinions are important to us, thanked them, then proceaded to do what we were going to do anyway.

Which is probably what Adobe and the Dw team are doing.

Asking for opinions and acting on them, are two completely separate things.

That's why I prefer this discussion, as even though the impression in the other one is that the Dw team are reading it and taking notice of what is said, they are not.

that is a bit the meaning and perspective that this discussion had taken, and I find your moderating text to be very welcome.

you're right, who are we to say that the straw in the other's eye is more important than the beam in ours.... French joke

let's discuss, discuss and try to transmit the best of everyone in a DW that best meets the respective expectations... and above all... that make DW comes back to the forefront

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

In many ways I feel sorry for the Dw team, simply because what they are doing, may be all they are allowed to do.

Of course, but that's why you employee skilled people, so they can advise and steer the ship in the right direction. If you dont listen to your employees advice, suggestions and concerns then you're nothing but a first class idiot. Those people should be quickly identified before they cause insurmountable damage.

The greatest unique selling point DW ever had was the SBs. Thats why users gravitated towards it because although they were simplistic it opened up a path that many had never explored before.........so who made the catastrophic decision to abandon updating/improving the capabilities of the server behaviours. Thats where you can trace the decline of DW back to but I would assume that person has long vanished from the company.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

Those people should be quickly identified before they cause insurmountable damage.

You've worked in large organisations, as I have Os, and we both know that is not how it works. Simply because it is the people at the top making the decissions, and if someone below 'rocks the boat', they go not you.

I don't know who is deciding the future of Dw, but I would bet that whomever it is, is not reading forum posts and not interested in forum members opinions.

Look at the profiles at the Dw team members posting the blog posts, which should give you an idea about how important 'what we think' is.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

osgood_   wrote

Those people should be quickly identified before they cause insurmountable damage.

You've worked in large organisations, as I have Os, and we both know that is not how it works. Simply because it is the people at the top making the decissions, and if someone below 'rocks the boat', they go not you.

I live in hope that at least some members of the decision making team aren't arrogant as well as stupid but it can be a big ask in a 'closed' shop where everyone at the top is turning a blind eye, usually because it suits them financially, it happens.

pziecina  wrote

I don't know who is deciding the future of Dw, but I would bet that whomever it is, is not reading forum posts and not interested in forum members opinions.

At a guess I would say a goldfish.

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  a écrit

I live in hope that at least some members of the decision making team aren't arrogant as well as stupid but it can be a big ask in a 'closed' shop where everyone at the top is turning a blind eye, usually because it suits them financially, it happens.

I certainly have trouble understanding English, or humour, or both... but with my low vision, and my basic elementary English, it seems to me that your comments are in a derogatory tone, may be condescending.

I think message #19 can shed some light

if we want to engage in a real conversation with the development teams, and in this case the decision maker, it is not by calling them all names, or by denigrating their integrity,  that the user-friendliness will be there

but maybe I misinterpreted what you said, and in that case, I apologize.