layout and ap div in Dreamweaver CC

[KaNe_Nod]

where is the layout panel and where is the draw ap div button in Dreamweaver cc?

i hope it's hidden but not been taken away

help please

[MurraySummers]

Fair enough. There's no better way to learn what the validator message mean than to validate and fix a couple of pages!

[osgood_]

infatum wrote:

Thank you for describing how to keep the code nice and clean, but the question is, if it is working with the same functionality, does one need to bother about changing 30+ pages just to keep the W3 validator happy? 😃

No, its not necessary at all in my opinion.

Virtually none of the pages I produce will validate but they are 99% correctly coded, that's good enough for me. I test in the browsers I want to support...if the page works job done.

I'll always maintain that once you write good html/css you will have no need for the validator. I can pretty much not validate any page I produce and 99% of the time know it's going to work in all major browsers first time.....that's because I know what I'm doing.

You may hear that a page that doesnt vaildate won't work in this browser or that browser or that it will be ranked lower in search engines. This is all untrue. Infact validation is no guide as to if it will or won't render correctly.

Don't rely on the validtor rely on your ability to produce code that works, any minor mistakes are immaterial.

It's true, your page should not be packed with dozens of coding errors that's just sloppy but the odd one here and there isnt going to make any difference.

[C_F_McBlob]

I've read estimates that by 2016, 90% of all web traffic will be from phones. NOT building for them seems like locking your doors 24/7 and wondering why you never hget any business.

[infatum]

Thanks, I would have to consider the stats. Perhaps shifting away from flash technology on the website since some browsers on tablet pcs and smart phones don't support it, have issues with it or require a manual install (which most of the non-tech users will not follow. By most of the users it is perceived as either working or not.)

I consider starting the website from a scratch with a pre-built template like Joomla and a web-based CMS system that doesn't need a software package and can be managed from any PC. Perhaps, this will mean less customization possibilities, but it will be less time-consuming.  

Stats alone, but I believe we are also going to have big screens as well. TVs are becoming smart as well with internet on the rise. Plus, don't write off usual computers and notebooks.

I'm less concerned about business since I work at public school (non-profit, tight budget), but I must agree that if I was in business I'd have gone with the dinosaurs.   

[Guest]

Sorry, this isn't an answer - this may be my problem - posted today by bwsMaster.

How do  I know if it is because my divs are absolutely positioned?

My web-site : www.bws.wilts.sch.uk has the image scroller div pushing other content down the page.

Paul

[JustiBru]

I think the removal of DRAW AP DIV is going to be met with mixed emotions - probably more on the angry and upset side. Dreamweaver, for years, has appealed to the visual designer as well as the more code-oriented one. People use it at different levels and the nice thing about the DRAW aspect was that it allowed a person to quickly "layout" a site or page and then make adjustments to it to comply properly with code/best practices. With the layout feature gone, the product feels less about creativity and design and more about the professional. I can see both sides of the arguement, though.

This is a classic example of a product being developed with one customer group considered and not the whole.

I know several hundred students that got their first exposure to website design/layout by using the DRAW AP Div tool, plus from an accessability standpoint, now we have a challenge.

I think it should just be an option that can be hidden. It is really weird to see it go and sad that all user groups are not being considered. Yes, we need to move ahead but you need to inform and educate the customer as to why - not just rip it out.

I think the lack this feature alone will keep many in DW CS6 as the creative aspect and the intuative approach is gone.

My .02.

[KaNe_Nod]

thanks for all

first think guys im not a web developer iam a graphic designer
i do my design in illustrator or some times photoshop and flash and then go to dreamweaver

to make my points to the programers in my company and make them understand my design i draw the website in dreamweaver with the APDivs

so i don't care if it's the not best selution or not effective or not powerful or old or any word you said

i just don't care

and i don't want to use the old dreamweaver it's disgusting that i update all my adobe programs and get used to the new designs and stick with dreamweaver cs6 it's just a stupid

and why they remove it anyway. they didn't remove the (red eye removal tool) from the photoshop .it never work's but you can't judge who and how they use it ??

and i know there is so many graphic designer work in the web design like me and do the samethings that i do

because it's the best tool for us

thanks for all

[BenPleysier]

Why not draw the website in PS and pass that on to the developers?

Having said that, many designers do learn basic markup and CSS and are quite happy to not have to revert to AP's

[KaNe_Nod]

i have to give them the html folder with separated jpg's and png's files because most of them don't know how to work with photoshop or illustrator

and if i didn't give them that they just start to ask millions of questions (where i should put that photo? is that for the button? where is mouse over button?) and it waste my time

and trust me as a graphic designer you just can't give your vision to some one by talking or sketch they need every detail

i learned the beasics of html and css and i can do the design with 2-4 hours but with APDivs at max 30 minute

thanks

[polygrinder]

I have to agree with you. The use of AP divs for design purposes is unparalled. And I have always found those who would tell me not to use something becasue it doesn't work for one reason or another is code for they don't know how to use them and make them work, or at least in their world. Face it, we all have different reasons for using tools and have different markets to attack. One size doesn't necessarily fit all.

[Nancy OShea]

One size doesn't necessarily fit all.

I couldn't agree more.  Especially now given all the different browsers, mobile/tablet devices and display sizes we must cater to.  A one size fits all approach just doesn't cut it anymore. 

Despite how you may feel about APDivs/Layers, they DON'T work in responsive layouts because they remove content from the normal document flow. This isn't about coding elitism either. It all comes down to usability.  If site visitors can't  use the sites you create, they will go elsewhere.

Nancy O.

[R00sevelt77]

Unfortunately many of the posts on this forum stating that the use of AP Divs is obsolete or incorrect have been made, in my opinion, by developers with little concern or understanding of modern design and he necessary fact that some sacrifice must be made in order to preserve visual appeal.

If you take he advice of Nancy O. You will have a site that your grandparents can read without using their glasses, but its not going to win many people over from a design standpoint, which is a critical part of marketing on the internet.

Using AP Divs nested inside Relative-positioned divs is a good way to strike some balance. I think it is grossly overstated that AP Divs are never to be used. Comical, in fact.

[C_F_McBlob]

R00sevelt77 wrote:

Unfortunately many of the posts on this forum stating that the use of AP Divs is obsolete or incorrect have been made, in my opinion, by developers with little concern or understanding of modern design and he necessary fact that some sacrifice must be made in order to preserve visual appeal.

If you take he advice of Nancy O. You will have a site that your grandparents can read without using their glasses, but its not going to win many people over from a design standpoint, which is a critical part of marketing on the internet.

Using AP Divs nested inside Relative-positioned divs is a good way to strike some balance. I think it is grossly overstated that AP Divs are never to be used. Comical, in fact.

That's purely a matter of opinion. Facts, and W3C validation criteria will belie it in EVERY case.

Some reading to enlighten you:

http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/prop_style_position.asp  (The position property is supported in all major browsers. Note: The value "inherit" is not supported in IE7 and earlier. IE8 requires a !DOCTYPE. IE9 supports "inherit".)

http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_positioning.asp  (Absolutely positioned elements are removed from the normal flow. The document and other elements behave like the absolutely positioned element does not exist.)

[justinjvox]

Sadly enough the conventional way of using them caused many issues but after nesting them inside relative position and then anchoring those to the center of the page you could create an adjusting apdiv that would show correctly no matter the ratio or resolution on the monitor "standard" or not.

[Nancy OShea]

I think it is grossly overstated that AP Divs are never to be used.

I never said APDivs should never be used.  In rare situations, APDivs serve a much needed purpose  -- such as modal windows, drop-menus, and disjointed rollovers. 

However, in primary layouts they often cause more harm than good which can and often does lead to usability issues.  If you're not designing pages that can be comfortably viewed by everyone and on various display sizes, you're not meeting the challenges of today's web.

Nancy O.

[patstini1]

I hate to re-open this debate as it seems to be polarising the percieved differences between coders and designers but I am in search of a long term or at least future proof solution...

Like a lot of graphic designers I work in print design as well as for screen. In my 25+ years in this business I have only be able to work 'visually' i.e. with things that I can see in front of me. I use AP Divs because I can actually design a layout according to the principles of graphic design (typography, hierarchy, colour, composition and imagery) I am however aware that there is a problem with them.

I have tried several times to learn and use 'normal' divs but frankly the process reminds me of trying to program my ZX Spectrum in hex code in the 1980's...

Does anyone think there may be a way in which we designers might be able to keep using dreamweaver without all this coding? Could Adobe make a DIV which keeps everyone happy?

(Oh and please don't suggest Muse, it's like using MySpace...)

[Nancy OShea]

I also worked in print before making the leap (and it was a mind bending leap) to web design.  I had to set-aside almost everything I learned about print and learn to think like a responsible web designer.  It's a totally different discipline.  And it's constantly changing with the steady emergence of new technologies.   

The holy grail you're seeking has almost nothing to do with Adobe or Dreamweaver and everything to do with evolving web standards and how various browsers  interpret them. 

Unfortunately, no 2 browsers or even 2 versions of the same browser do everything exactly the same way.  And then we have individual preferences to cope with which can destroy an otherwise perfect layout.   Print designers never have to deal with these challenges because printed media is static.

I don't like Muse either.  There are several layout frameworks & tools you can use to jump start your web projects in Dreamweaver.  Professional results.  No APDivs required.

Foundation Zurb

http://foundation.zurb.com/templates.php

Skeleton Boilerplate

http://www.getskeleton.com/

Initializr (HTML5 Boilerplate, Responsive or Bootstrap)

http://www.initializr.com/

DMX Zone's Bootstrap extension for DW

http://www.dmxzone.com/go/21759/dmxzone-bootstrap/

Project Seven's Page Packs (CSS Templates)

http://www.projectseven.com/products/templates/index.htm

Nancy O.

[BWBarefoot]

Thanks for the information about whether or not AP divs are in CC.

That being said, I am disappointed in a way.  Right now, I am taking a class at ABC Adult School using CS6 and I have just learned how to draw and work with AP divs.  I had hoped to use it in a personal project here at home, but could not find any way to make the divs.

Now that I know that it's not there, I feel sort of cheated because that's knowledge I can't use.  And I certainly don't know how to create a similar effect in CC without AP divs.  I would appreciate any help; until then, I'll just carry on.

[R00sevelt77]

BW -

You can use AP Divs with CC just specify you're positioning through your CSS.

Best advice is to avoid this forum altogether, unless you relish the idea of constantly being told by Ben & Nancy that their is no place at all for AP Divs, that this is a FACT, that design is a strict and undebatable medium with stringent rules that they are the gatekeepers of, that you cannot wear white after Labor Day, that going out into the rain with no coat on will kill you and other such 'Facts.'

Find a forum where there is open discussion so you don't get hammered over the head by these stubborn coding geriatrics.

I wish you the best.

[Jon Fritz]

Strange mini rant aside.

You can create APDivs in CC, the process is a bit more complicated than the old "click the APDiv button" method since absolute positioning has fallen out of favor for more flexible methods of laying out websites.

1. In DW, click Insert > Div

2. In the Dialogue that pops up, click New CSS Rule

3. In the new dialogue, select ID from the drop down and give the div a Name (unique to this div only)

4. Choose where you want the css written from the bottom drop down and click OK

5. In the new dialogue, choose Positioning and under Position choose Absolute

6. Hit OK, twice

You will now be able to click on the new div in Design View and resize or move as you see fit.

[C_F_McBlob]

BWBarefoot wrote:

Thanks for the information about whether or not AP divs are in CC.

That being said, I am disappointed in a way.  Right now, I am taking a class at ABC Adult School using CS6 and I have just learned how to draw and work with AP divs.  I had hoped to use it in a personal project here at home, but could not find any way to make the divs.

Now that I know that it's not there, I feel sort of cheated because that's knowledge I can't use.  And I certainly don't know how to create a similar effect in CC without AP divs.  I would appreciate any help; until then, I'll just carry on.

Call me a cynic, but I'd probably feel as cheated as I would if I'd just spent a semester learning to fix 8 track tape players.  I'd be more upset at being trained to use something obsolete, and counterproductive to today's web design requirements.

I went through 6 months of training in the Air Force on F-4 Phantoms, only to be sent to a base where the last F-4 was flown out ten years earlier. So I spent my first six months on my new base taking the courses I should have... in tech school.  People said, "Well, now you're trained on two jets..."

GREAT!!!!

If I'd been assigned to a bone yard somewhere... I might have actually SEEN one of the birds I was trained to work on. 

Forget about the useless knowledge the school gave you and concentrate on something that'll actually help you make a living in webdesign. APDivs... ain't it.

[MurraySummers]

I agree with Mike 100%. And let the school know how useless and antique the information you were give has been in the real world. This is not only embarrassing it's unconscionable.

[R00sevelt77]

Absolute positioning nested inside relative positioned elements is being taught and used in almost every design school in existence today, and put into practice by professional designers every day across the industry. I couldn't possibly list them all, just research any reputable design school and look into their curriculum. I will start with RISD, maybe you have heard of that one.

I strongly urge anyone who reads this forum and sees a member post that AP Divs have no use in modern design to discount anything that individual has to say. It's akin to them saying the spoon is outdated and no longer practical in today's society, and then comical to watch them eat their soup with a fork.

It's a wonder how dangerous a bit of knowledge can be. For aspiring young designers, take caution - those that claim that a given tool is completely unacceptable generally lack understanding and experience beyond the first layer of the toolbox.

[MurraySummers]

I'm rubber and you're glue.

Using absolute positioning as a primary layout tool, even when placed within positioned ancestors, is an ill advised approach to page construction. And I'd love to see the syllabus that proposes that approach for anything other than special purposes, especially one from Rhode Island School of Design. If they are teaching this, then maybe they need a talking to as well.

Bear in mind that most of the people who come to these forums asking questions about 'AP divs' and 'layers' are doing so because they have no information about the up- and downsides of this approach. Your post is a bit self-serving in that it may make you feel better, but it doesn't help the inquisitive beginner or even mid-range user, who are both best told to avoid positioning completely until they have the experience to understand why they should do this, and how they can use all CSS to their advantage.

[bregent]

I would like to be able to use AP Divs to build robust sites - I think we all would. R00sevelt77 please show us some examples of sites that use them. If every one is teaching it, there must be plenty of examples. I'm not trying to be snarky, if there's a way to do it then I'm all for it.