No more Muse, what about DW?

[wefollow]

I really don't know what do to after using Muse.

I started using the Dreamweaver with StudioMx  but few months ago started using Muse.

Muse......March 26, 2018 we will release the final feature improvement release ...

Adobe doesn't even recommend Dreamweaver.

Should I come back to Dw?

Really need you advice.

thank you for reading,

James

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

It has become normal that it is not allowed to tell anyone that they cannot do whatever they wish to do, so people are becomming rich providing those who 'do not know' with the tools to do 'what they cannot do'. Then those who 'cannot do' think they 'can do' and sell what they produce to those who know even less.

Sadly very true.

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

I do not think that removing the possibility for designers to express themselves through a graphical interface will put the balance in this direction ... on the contrary, many designers have the opportunity to express themselves and produce content. without having to learn code ... then nothing prevents developers to help designers produce what might seem impossible ....

This post would probably be better in its own discussion, but as it would probably only include myself, Birnou and possibly Osgood, it does not warrant its own discussion.

The most profitable and rewarding section of web development these days, is in custom back-end development for none e-commerce companies/organisations. A section of web development almost entirerly closed off from the front-end designer/developer, and one that open source rarely even comes into consideration.

If you look at the larger corporate/organisation sites there is no longer 'log-in' links, as the front-end that any visitors sees is completely separate from the back-end, normally on a completely separate server, (so don't bother looking at any and saying they use wordpress, bootstrap or whatever).

In the back-end large fully functional apps are built, using many of the api's, and features that even make the Adobe mobile apps such as Ps and Illustrator look like an app for a child's colouring book. Modern html and css features are often used, and most front-end plug-ins that web sites use for UI features now look like they were from the early web.

Letting the front-end become the province of visual site creation tools, is not something that can be stopped, and trying to compete in that area is only going to get harder and harder. There are always new people comming into both web design and development, and anyone thinking what went yesterday is good enough for tomorrow, will find themselves strugling in a world that does not care to pay above the odds just to give them a living.

Eventually some of what is now done for those large corporate back-ends, will filter through to the front-end designer/developer using visual tools, but like everthing else the web will have moved on. Forget trying to compete with those who use visual site creation programs, the back-end is now where the fun and the money is.

Browser based apps, even for e-commerce are now a reality.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Forget trying to compete with those who use visual site creation programs, the back-end is now where the fun and the money is.

I must admit that is now where I feel most statisfield these days if anywhere within web-development, creating something for  the back end, even if its only a bespoke simple cms system because it takes skill and the satisfaction is quite rewarding when its all linked up. I dont get that same kind of satisfaction doing the front end now but maybe thats because it offers no real challenge to me any more. I like a challenge.

[B i r n o u]

The most profitable and rewarding section of web development these days, is in custom back-end development for none e-commerce companies/organisations. A section of web development almost entirerly closed off from the front-end designer/developer, and one that open source rarely even comes into consideration.

well you're probably right, but I would have add the PWA too.... and it's client side, so front-end...  (and there it's only manual code... no interface graphics ready now...

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

well you're probably right, but I would have add the PWA too.... and it's client side, so front-end...  (and there it's only manual code... no interface graphics ready now...

We could say that even the back-end has a front-end.

joke

[pziecina]

Let's get it right, we both know I have championed visual aids for Dreamweaver users for years, and been shot down for doing so constantly. A few others had the same opinion as me, so I am not saying I was alone.

If I was looking for a Muse replacment I would not choose Dreamweaver then purchase extensions, like @W_J_T recommends to Muse users I would choose Pinegrow.

That is because it includes almost all of the basics, (and a few advanced) features one requires for working with css in a visual format. There is no need to purchase extensions, (adding to the cost) for what I consider should be included in any program both for designers and developers.

[B i r n o u]

j'entends bien votre réponse, mais apparemment c'est une réponse qui réponds à aucune question que je n'ai posé...

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

to have a philophic discussion about the code, its use and its future is one thing, but to be vindictive against the designer saying that it is imperative to learn the code to participate in the evolution of the web is quite presumptuous ...

I have no issues with designers that are prepared to engage and show interest in how the web works, unforunatley very few do or want to if you read a lot of posts in this forum, where I would assume some are designers, because they are certainly not coders.

I work with designers and the ones I work with are not in a position to put things right if they go wrong or to incorporate specific client requests IF a plugin or extension doesnt exist, so they can only offer a limited service, in my opinion. A typical example was one built a Wordpress website using a variety of plugins. The code was awful, 20+ links to css and js files. They couldnt get the form plugin to work and never did and you think to fill up the web with this kind of garbage is going in the right direction?

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

I have no issues with designers that are prepared to engage and show interest in how the web works, ...

Well said.

[B i r n o u]

osgood_  wrote

I have no issues with designers that are prepared to engage and show interest in how the web works, ...

Paula  wrote

Well said.

it seems to me that there is a huge difference between "show interest on how the web works" and the initial exchanges that said something like "learn HTML and CSS" ...

decisively the art and the way of muddling long conversations

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

osgood_   wrote

I have no issues with designers that are prepared to engage and show interest in how the web works, ...

osgood_   wrote

Well said.

it seems to me that there is a huge difference between "show interest on how the web works" and the initial exchanges that said something like "learn HTML and CSS" ...

By showing interest I mean you should know the limitations of what can be done or what can't be done. Does that require knowledege of html and css, or not, I think so personally or least have a good understanding of it.

[B i r n o u]

so what ?

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

so what ?

So what, what?

[B i r n o u]

well if you don't remember what you said...

I work with designers and the ones I work with are not in a position to put things right if they go wrong or to incorporate specific client requests IF a plugin or extension doesnt exist, so they can only offer a limited service, in my opinion. A typical example was one built a Wordpress website using a variety of plugins. The code was awful, 20+ links to css and js files. They couldnt get the form plugin to work and never did and you think to fill up the web with this kind of garbage is going in the right direction?

to what I said ... so what ?

because... I find normal if a designer get trouble if he or she has to implies in code... that is the job of a developer... so if you are a developer it's part of your job... isn't it...

if there are too much link, or if an extension doesn't work... isn't it part of your job to make it work ?

so what ?... what is the problem ?... that is part of each one of us... design and develop...

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

to what I said ... so what ?

because... I find normal if a designer get trouble if he or she has to implies in code... that is the job of a developer... so if you are a developer it's part of your job... isn't it...

if there are too much link, or if an extension doesn't work... isn't it part of your job to make it work ?

so what ?... what is the problem ?... that is part of each one of us... design and develop...

So you're happy for a designer to implement a form which doesnt work because they have no knowledge of how to troubleshoot the code, plugin, extension to get it to work, that's great. If they then have to turn to a coder........... well your argument doesn't hold water because as you seem to be implying in your posts no need for coders to exist these days.

Your only answer to the problem seems to be 'So what'.....

[B i r n o u]

well your argument doesn't hold water because as you seem to be implying in your posts no need for coders to exist these days.

I know that English is not my mother tongue, but I think I was clear enough to say that today designers should not need to code anything ... just use graphical interfaces worthy of this name...

where do you see, in this concept, the shadow of an idea that would imply that developers are no longer useful ...?

then I pointed out that developers should not judge designers who do not know the code, and, to put them in rather derogatory names ...

[osgood_]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/B+i+r+n+o+u  wrote

well your argument doesn't hold water because as you seem to be implying in your posts no need for coders to exist these days.

I know that English is not my mother tongue, but I think I was clear enough to say that today designers should not need to code anything

Well they obviously can't hence my example of the designer that used a Wordpress widget/plugin couldn't get it working so just left it not working, published the website.

Options are  bury your head in the sand or contact a coder.......who probably could get it working or at least write something that did work.

[BenPleysier]

I can see web development going much the same way as a lot of other professions/trades. As the site engineer for a production unit, part of my task was to produce tooling, jigs and fixtures that aided in the production process. In the latter stages of my career, the number of people involved in creating these aides  gradually decreased. CAD packages allowed the graphics designers to create their own drawings as well as the code for CNC machines thus bypassing the draughts men and women as well as reducing the skills of our toolmakers. It also ensured that mistakes were minimised.

In today's climate, we can build houses using a 3D printer, driver-less vehicles are taking over the transport system and drones are first on the spot at emergency scenes, why can't we think of a way of automating web-design?

And that is the whole thought bubble, as I read it, from people that use Muse. They are designers that want to bypass the developer.

[ALsp]

Well said.

[B i r n o u]

great feedback, Ben...

[pziecina]

Birnou just realised 'shot down' will not translate.

It is used when others say no for various reasons. The problem is though that for many of them project seven now offer extensions using them, and programs like Pingrow and Webflow are gaining support in the Muse forum because those trialing them find them easy to use.

[B i r n o u]

so what is the final point ?

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

I can see web development going much the same way as a lot of other professions/trades. As the site engineer for a production unit, part of my task was to produce tooling, jigs and fixtures that aided in the production process. In the latter stages of my career, the number of people involved in creating these aides  gradually decreased. CAD packages allowed the graphics designers to create their own drawings as well as the code for CNC machines thus bypassing the draughts men and women as well as reducing the skills of our toolmakers. It also ensured that mistakes were minimised.

In today's climate, we can build houses using a 3D printer, driver-less vehicles are taking over the transport system and drones are first on the spot at emergency scenes, why can't we think of a way of automating web-design?

And that is the whole thought bubble, as I read it, from people that use Muse. They are designers that want to bypass the developer.

Well that really depends on how much pride you have in what you do I guess.The architects of yester-year would be turning in their graves to see some of the carbuncal buildings erected today, souless, off site flat pack builds, blighting our inner cities and surrounding counrtyside where industial estates, with very little imagination, other than quick and fast, spring up over a 6 month period.

If you apply the same analogy to coding, look at what Bootstrap produces, look at what Wordress produces, why, because essentailly they are the equivilant flat packs of the architect or even funiture world. How can any developer be proud to look at the coding and think, I'm a real professional.

Am very happy to accept that's the way things are going and I won't be part of it shortly but it doesnt mean its a good way, just a more economical, quick and cheap way without needing any skills. Then we all moan because we lose website builds to amatuers who charge less than our weekly rent or monthly mortage repayments, then they disappear as quickly as they surfaced, it drives prices down in mainstream web-developemnt. Frameworks and extensions are part of the problem, only the solution in terms of its a race to the bottom.

[pziecina]

Much of the flow of this discussion has now been lost, (at least for me) as everyone, (yes, I DO meen everyone) is discussing topics that have no, or very little relationships to each other.

Maybe it is time everyone takes a break, and lets everything drop as it is going nowhere.

[B i r n o u]

arf .. arf ... admit that you have largely contributed to the discussion derailing ... easy now to point this ... arf arf ...