OT: A little bit more about Wappler - confusion

[osgood_]

I never really could understand DMXzones main website and the myriad of different extension available and what extension would be required to do this or that.........it seems Wappler is going to be just as confusing.

https://wappler.io/extensions.html

Thankfully I have no need for extensions otherwise it would take me a week to understand what ones I needed.

I mean the 'basic' version includes:

App Connect Data Formatter

App Connect Browser

What the heck are they? Doesn't actually say anything about what they do and why you might need them and dont forget we are appealing to 'Bob the Builder' type of developers so if I have no clue they arent going to for sure. A link perhaps to the info on their main site would be good or even better a modal window which pops up detailing in what situation you may need to use them

Does the 'Pro' version contain  all the 'basic & free' extensions???.... the way the info is provided you could be forgiven for not really knowing?

Why not just have 3 headings Free, Basic, Pro and list whats included in each option under the 3 main headings..........far too simple and logical I guess

[W_J_T]

pziecina , it may be a good value for visual creation of dynamic sites, like the Pro version offers.

I just noticed some further discussion on pricing in the comments of this Blog post about the crowdfunding.

https://blog.wappler.io/lets-make-history-wappler-crowdfunding-is-launched/

Also they updated the crowdfund page with the following testimony.

Wappler Intro from the The Dreamweaver Guru Joseph Lowery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9WeOvQ31M

[osgood_]

15000 Euros...blimey they are setting a low target. The bloke down the road raised more inside a day when his dog needed a complicated operation procedure performed last year

[W_J_T]

osgood_  wrote

15000 Euros...blimey they are setting a low target. The bloke down the road raised more inside a day when his dog needed a complicated operation procedure performed last year

Great point, if they have the quoted 600,000 members, over 17 years and 3 million downloads.

Then why the heck did they set the bar so low at €15,000 ? Maybe they plan to stick with their approach of dragging this thing out forever and crowdfund for another year before making anything public. So they can say how exceedingly popular it was, above and beyond.

[W_J_T]

W_J_T  wrote

So they can say how exceedingly popular it was

I guess they are already employing this tactic.

It would be easy for anyone to make a list of all the crowd-fundings that easily exceeded or even double and tripled their goal in 1 day well into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. How is €15,000 worthy of sending out a press release to tech outlets, this is 2018 isn't it ?

[osgood_]

I still dont get the crowd funding aspect. It seems the only people at the moment crowd funding are the beta testers simply because they have something to make a decision as to if they think its worthy of supporting, anyone else doesnt have that insight until a public beta or trial version is available to make a judgement.

They may as well have just gone straight to market so the likes of myself can form an opinion and more importantly the amatuer who is most likely to buy into the product can form an opinion........thats where the finanvial upkeep of a product comes from.

Crowd funding only works if you offer an investor shares or equity in a product, its like a gamble, if its big your investment pays off, if its not you lose it. Im not particularly sure l want to invest even a dollar in something l have never test driven, which is what is happening.

Its not huge there are 38 beta tester backers out of how many l dont know and more importantly 38 out of 600000 supposedly DMXzone subscribers, thats poor.

[BenPleysier]

Its not huge there are 38 beta tester backers out of how many l dont know and more importantly 38 out of 600000 supposedly DMXzone subscribers, thats poor.

38 beta testers that are willing to back a project that they believe in.

As I have said before, Wappler will not be a product for all, especially not for those that wish to only hand-code.

With the following, I did not touch a piece of code and it took a fraction of the time that it would otherwise take me.

and the code that was produced?

   <div class="container">
      <div class="row">
        <div class="col">
          <h1 class="w-100 h3 p-2 bg-success"><small class="text-primary">BOK 2:</small> The Golden Rule</h1>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="card-deck">
        <div class="card">
          <div class="card-header text-warning bg-primary">Full Feature</div>
          <img class="card-img-top" alt="Full Feature Movie" src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/02Uvtk9YeW8/mqdefault.jpg">
          <div class="card-body">
            <p class="card-text">Please Share:  <i class="fa fa-facebook fa-lg text-white bg-primary pl-1 py-1"></i>   <i class="fa fa-envelope fa-lg text-info"></i></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div class="card">
          <div class="card-header bg-info text-light">Animated Story</div>
          <img class="card-img-top" alt="Animated Story" src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4ajT8fJNfOU/mqdefault.jpg">
          <div class="card-body">
            <p class="card-text">Join the BunchOKids on an adventure in search of the Golden Ruler</p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div class="card">
          <div class="card-header text-primary bg-warning">Nana Jenny's Kitchen</div>
          <img class="card-img-top" alt="Nana Jenny's Kitchen" src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gMD1whEewRc/mqdefault.jpg">
          <div class="card-body">
            <p class="card-text">Join Nana Jenny and kids as they discover that it's always better to stick to the recipe! And the Golden Rule is our recipe for life!<br></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </div>

[BenPleysier]

Forgot to say that I used the free edition of Wappler

[W_J_T]

BenPleysier  wrote
With the following, I did not touch a piece of code 

BenPleysier  wrote

Forgot to say that I used the free edition of Wappler

I guess that's why there is no Menu / Navbar shown in the screenshot.

Not speaking towards you Ben, but that means for 'Non-Coders' they would need to update to the Basic version just to finish their site so it can include a menu / navbar. That was what was discussed initially. Trickle effect of upsells, just to get your pig to market.

[pziecina]

I don't think anyone expecting a visual means of site/app layout would be expected to be using the basic version anyway.

But the fact that the beta testers are at least willing to invest in the project, (not dmxzone personnel) does I think say  that they at least think it has a future. The question for me though is - does, (and if so how) Dw have a future with those beta testers, and if not, why not?

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

The question for me though is - does, (and if so how) Dw have a future with those beta testers, and if not, why not?

That seems to be the pressing question Adobe can't answer and more so has no clue about. Even when provided concrete direct user input from people whom have used it since before they owned it. Input that was based upon the pulse of the industry not the whims of Adobes marketing machine. So they continue to just go on whistling through the woods as they systematically dismantle the product into something neither coders or designers seem to care for anymore.

Sadly this seems to be the same course for many of their flagship apps over the years.

[pziecina]

W_J_T  wrote

Sadly this seems to be the same course for many of their flagship apps over the years.

With web development and Adobe, I think it has as much to do with Adobe having no coherent ideas about what can be done on the web now, what is required by web developers, or just what type of web development to support. If you read posts in other forums, there is a complete disconnect between many Adobe product users and what web development can do, or to put it plainly everyone at Adobe and most supporters of Adobe, (acp's, staff, pre-release, etc) are stuck in the past.

Most do not even realise that many of their favourite Adobe product have some elements of html, css and javascript included in them.

Adobe also want to control product use when it is via the internet, with a lot of the products only being available via an Adobe server, or at a very expensive cost if licensed to a clients server. Which then brings one to the question of just what type of 'user' does Adobe cater for, individual or enterprise?

[BenPleysier]

Just between you and me, I think you hit the nail on its head. The free Wappler is the bait. But then, if you take Bootstrap out of the equation, you are left with an improved version of Dreamweaver.

[osgood_]

Thats my point Ben, 38 beta testers who would have bought into the app anyway , regardless of crowd funding.

Its time to go public and let more decide if they will buy into the project. If the project is as good as you say and l have no doubt that it will be beneficial to some, even me perhaps, would find merit in some aspects of it, thats where the money will come from to finance the project in the long term, not some promise of an early pro version with a t shirt and mug thrown in for good measure.

If the app is good, even as a basic editor, l wouldnt just use the free version l would support the project and buy an upgrade version regardless of if l used the extra options which shipped with it.......lm against the free version but until it is widely released to a wider audience then the funding will be provided mostly  by the beta  testers, so those beta testers that are still sitting on the fence had better show your support.

At the moment we have some rather pretty videos and an old guy whose probaby past his sell by date promoting it. Hardly an endorsement to throw 340 euros at a product you know little about and what its capable of unless you have first hand experience of a test drive.

[BenPleysier]

I have been a customer of DMXZone since 2004 when I paid my first invoice

Since then I have accumulated many of their articles and extensions and have not had one unhappy incident.

This whole crowd fund thingy has me baffled as well, but after having had a discussion with George Petrov, in my native language, I decided that I could put my trust in what they are trying to achieve. The amount that I paid, is not so much a payment for the application, it is meant to further develop Wappler and will probably fund the marketing of the product. The fact that I am a backer, will allow me to use the product for one year.

Now the questions arise,

• when will I get to use the product?
• how much will I have to pay after one year, keeping in mind that I have already made thousands of dollars of purchases for extensions that are the equivalent to the package that I can use for one year.
• is the product that I get to use of a standard that I can use in production? At the moment that is not the case.

So, you can see that people are in a quandary , shall we join in the funding or shall we wait until there is a better clarification. The development is going at a great speed and the Team is listening to and acting upon what the beta testers are saying. The overall impression that I get is that they are on the right track and with my experience with the DW extensions, I remain hopeful.

The above is based on people that are in the know, i.e. beta testers. For those that have not been in that inner circle, it must be a lot harder to decide whether to become a financial backer. After all, although we did not sign an NDA, we are held to secrecy, which does not help the outsider at all.

In other words, do you believe all of the hype (or even half of it), open your wallet, otherwise keep it closed.

These are my personal thoughts, I may be wrong. The only way to find out is if the beta version is made public.

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

The only way to find out is if the beta version is made public

Initially that was supposed to be what was going to happen but it seems to have taken a rather strange turn of events for some reason.

I think crowd funding will raise a bit of cash from those like yourself but its a very limited money supply as opposed to getting it out there in the open market, which should generate a better cashflow.

I guess if they have run out of cash to fund it and its a way off ready to go, as it seems to be, then that is the only way to keep it alive.  Thats the only reason they would have to turn to crowd funding.

[W_J_T]

Since the other Wappler thread was locked, while I was typing.

 
It should be noted it was locked by Ben, whom is a Wappler closed Beta Tester and paying Crowd Funder. Which provides the perception of conflict of interest, not allowing people to openly speak. Which seems to be relative to Adobe in general, however nothing in that thread was out of place to be closed or need to be censored.

Anyway, I feel Wappler got a touch greedy with their pricing model, and are missing a bigger conversion rate and audience.

As an example, by contrast Macaw raised $275,929 with 2640 backers all under the $149 price point. Sure that amount was acquired during closer to a years time, but still under a closed beta period. But it remains a good indicator for the price point and audience seeking a non-coder focused app.

That same and bigger non-coder audience still exists today and continues to grow. It's spread all over the place (desktop apps and cloud offerings) with many more young people and designers seeking the same non-coder focused app everyday. I feel they should of focused on a price point for higher conversion and adaptation rate. The market is huge for non-coders, so profits will come regardless as long as an offering is worthy of their needs and requirements.

[osgood_]

W_J_T  wrote

Since the other Wappler Is Wappler the Dreamweaver Killer? , while I was typing.

It should be noted it was locked by Ben, whom is a Wappler closed Beta Tester and paying Crowd Funder. Which provides the perception of conflict of interest, not allowing people to openly speak. Which seems to be relative to Adobe in general, however nothing in that thread was out of place to be closed or need to be censored.

Anyway, I feel Wappler got a touch greedy with their pricing model, and are missing a bigger conversion rate and audience.

As an example, by contrast Macaw raised $275,929 with 2640 backers all under the $149 price point. Sure that amount was acquired during closer to a years time, but still under a closed beta period. But it remains a good indicator for the price point and audience seeking a non-coder focused app.

That same and bigger non-coder audience still exists today and continues to grow. It's spread all over the place (desktop apps and cloud offerings) with many more young people and designers seeking the same non-coder focused app everyday. I feel they should of focused on a price point for higher conversion and adaptation rate. The market is huge for non-coders, so profits will come regardless as long as an offering is worthy of their needs and requirements.

Right and look what happened to Macaw.....it joined up with inVision or was bought up, the app was discontinued in terms of getting updates.......obviously that 250K disappeared into the pockets of..........leaving those who funded the development with an app which was going nowhere.

[W_J_T]

Sorry, the actual number was $259,494, all under $149. (not allowed to edit post)

But still it demonstrates an audience that is largely bigger today for a non-code based app, which Wappler is claiming to be.

Given their model of having to pay annually to continue to use the extensions in the Basic and Pro versions (As discussed in my last post of the other locked thread). They could set a lower entry point cost, gain more conversions and adoptions and recur annually that same cost for maintainability and users wishing to stay current and up to date. In the long run I think their user conversions and profits would benefit more.

As an indicator of this code-less phenomenon, the number of Muse sites found online over the last year have increased while Dreamweaver sites have decreased. Sad but true.

[pziecina]

W_J_T  wrote

As an indicator of this code-less phenomenon, the number of Muse sites found online over the last year have increased while Dreamweaver sites have decreased. Sad but true.

The number of users of VS Pro for web development grew by over a million in the last year, (now 4 million users developing for the web). Coders outnumber the code-less, are more willing to experiment with new possibilities, and are in greater demand by employers.

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

The number of users of VS Pro for web development grew by over a million in the last year, (now 4 million users developing for the web). Coders outnumber the code-less, are more willing to experiment with new possibilities, and are in greater demand by employers.

To bad my previous post is currently being moderated, it would put your new post in context to me. Anyway, yeah I'm glad I am a coder. It's just too bad you feel the need to help moderate the broader discussion, unless its you speaking it seems.

[pziecina]

I could not care less about moderating this or other wappler discussions, (I am not a moderator, not even an acp or Adobe supporter) it is just that i feel these posts are no longer relevant, and a new broader discussion on what everyone is looking for, (coder and visual user) in a web development program would be of more use.

[osgood_]

My posts are not being moderated at the moment

Well the 2 previous ones werent............humm.

Neither was this once I added the edit............I cant tell whats going on these days.

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

... it is just that i feel these posts are no longer relevant, and a new broader discussion on what everyone is looking for, (coder and visual user) in a web development program would be of more use.

Discussion ?

Well, how many:

• posts
• threads
• posts in threads
• threads upon threads
• posts upon posts
• direct user input
• etc..

Will it take for Adobe to see, care, acknowledge, understand and take action for what has already been voiced by people, users, lost users, new users? They seemingly don't listen to those people or their thoughts, nor look around at the web landscape for understanding of the industry. Otherwise the results would be vastly different.

So how many "discussions" need to take place, focused or scattered on this forum? Adobe should have all the information they need to at a minimum do better than what they are currently offering and providing, let along provide tools which people need and want. An enormous amount of preexisting data and discussions exist here on this forum and throughout the industry. What more do they need?

So one more broader discussion will sway and change Adobe? I think not, as sad as that may be. But I am sure people will keep talking regardless if Adobe listens or allows them to speak, and no doubt continue moving on to other alternatives as well.

[pziecina]

Fully agree about Adobe not listening, in the previous wappler discussion the OP had not contributed for 5 days, which is one of the main reasons I thought it was at an end.

As for Dw's future, even in the pre-release no one from the Dw team is interested. No one can even tell us the type of user that Dw is aimed at, (that is saying ​they​ even know).

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

• Fully agree about Adobe not listening,
• even in the pre-release no one from the Dw team is interested

I guess that is what makes it all the more frustrating that we are not allowed to openly speak (closed threads, constant moderation of posts, etc.,), at least give us an open voice Adobe, even if you can't provide worthwhile applications any more. Obviously they could careless regarding listening to their own customers, the CC marketing machine must be hitting the baseline financial numbers month over month, so that providing innovation and poignant features no longer matter.

osgood_  wrote

I think this place has just become a sounding board for discontent users or ex-users

I don't think its going to change a thing but its good to get it out there rather than bottle it up inside.

Agreed.