OT: A little bit more about Wappler - confusion

[osgood_]

I never really could understand DMXzones main website and the myriad of different extension available and what extension would be required to do this or that.........it seems Wappler is going to be just as confusing.

https://wappler.io/extensions.html

Thankfully I have no need for extensions otherwise it would take me a week to understand what ones I needed.

I mean the 'basic' version includes:

App Connect Data Formatter

App Connect Browser

What the heck are they? Doesn't actually say anything about what they do and why you might need them and dont forget we are appealing to 'Bob the Builder' type of developers so if I have no clue they arent going to for sure. A link perhaps to the info on their main site would be good or even better a modal window which pops up detailing in what situation you may need to use them

Does the 'Pro' version contain  all the 'basic & free' extensions???.... the way the info is provided you could be forgiven for not really knowing?

Why not just have 3 headings Free, Basic, Pro and list whats included in each option under the 3 main headings..........far too simple and logical I guess

[W_J_T]

jamies34641468  wrote

long-time DMXzone customer i don't think this is the case here

There are those whom don't feel the same likewise (ie: not happy, or satisfied with DMXzone), so your singular case is not all encompassing.

Neither is the feedback from the Wappler beta testers, crowd funders, or a guy in a video promotion. Until large scale amounts of people (designers and developers) can try the free app or a timed trial of the Basic or Pro, then DMXZone will not have full feedback, usage, or an ideal of where things truly stand concerning the offering, its features or market standing. Simply saying things like "best ever", "in the world". "worlds top", etc., by DMXzone does nothing for real world usage, adoption or acquiring and retaining customers.

By contrast if its already the self proclaimed "Best in the world ever" application - then why is it not already being sold in the open market and instead stuck in crowd funding and closed beta? Or if its that fantastic already and there are so many happy existing DMXzone users, then how come more of the 600,000 claimed DMXzone members have not backed it through funding? Currently only 56 people have.

Don't these facts hold some value? I get that you are a DMZzone user, but wake up, numbers don't lie.

[williamj31276244]

I don't really get your point?

What do you expect me to comment exactly - i am just pointing out what i like in dmx zone and why do i support them.

W_J_T  wrote

jamies34641468   wrote

long-time DMXzone customer i don't think this is the case here

There are those whom don't feel the same likewise (ie: not happy, or satisfied with DMXzone), so your singular case is not all encompassing.

Someone is not happy with dmxzone? - well contrary i am, paying for 3rd yearly subscription with them already.

Neither is the feedback from the Wappler beta testers, crowd funders, or a guy in a video promotion. Until large scale amounts of people (designers and developers) can try the free app or a timed trial of the Basic or Pro, then DMXZone will not have full feedback, usage, or an ideal of where things truly stand concerning the offering, its features or market standing. Simply saying things like "best ever", "in the world". "worlds top", etc., by DMXzone does nothing for real world usage, adoption or acquiring and retaining customers.

By contrast if its already the self proclaimed "Best in the world ever" application - then why is it not already being sold in the open market and instead stuck in crowd funding and closed beta? Or if its that fantastic already and there are so many happy existing DMXzone users, then how come more of the 600,000 claimed DMXzone members have not backed it through funding? Currently only 56 people have.

Large scale amounts of users will be able to test it when it is fully developed - don't you get it is still being developed and not ready for production? What is the issue anybody stating his product is world's best? We will see this when it is released

Don't these facts hold some value? I get that you are a DMZzone user, but wake up, numbers don't lie.

Your facts don't change the fact dmxzone tools especially the visual way of working with dynamic data is really helping me in my daily workflow ...

[osgood_]

jamies34641468  wrote

Do you guys (in this topic) even know what is the purpose of Crowdfunding campaigns? Well, as it seems you have no idea about these things - It is surely not to sell you a ready-to-use product...

Crowdfunding campaigns give you an option to support the developers during the process of building their tools - and they set the target they need which could be $50, $500 or $500.000. Then after the product is released you already have access to it, as you supported them during the campaign.

Note that Wappler is being developed by DMXzone and their main business is selling DW extensions, so they profit enough from the DMXzone extensions obviously as they've been in the business for the last 15 years. Do you really think they rely on the crowdfunding campaign to develop this tool lol lol? As a yearly subscriber for DMXzone extensions i see they keep releasing and updating extensions every (or almost every) week and nothing on DMXzone has really changed since they started developing Wappler - no delays or postponed releases.

Also - not sure what exactly do you find confusing about it? I see all of the front and back end components integrated in Wappler - the ones i am using in DW every day. I am not a part of beta testers but i like what i already see on the crowdfunding page and in the videos they share and without any doubt i will get a license for the pro version during the campaign which of course will put in me the beta community until Wappler is officially released.

Do you know a public beta was within 2 days of launching back in October 2017...........the question on everyones lips is what the heck went wrong if they thought at that stage they were ready to make it public.

Surely they must have thought it was 90% complete so we are not taking about crowd funding to fund a start up project unless they have ripped it down and re-built it which could be a reason.

Where are we currenty at Beta 22+

Also the majority will find it a lot more reasuring to fund a project through yearly subscriptions once they have something tangable to buy. Look what happened to McCaw, another fantastic web editor, so the publicity lead us to believe, which didnt last long until it was put to bed and officailly the developers got bored with it, stopped supporting it AFTER 250k was raised through crowd funding. Does anyone really know where the majority of that 250k ended up?

[pziecina]

BenPleysier  wrote

I have been passing the problems on to the Dreamweaver team all along, I just do not do it publicly.

It's no good passing the problems to the team if they are not interested. We both know that once a feature is introduced, (or removed) then that is it as far as the team is concerned, unless they are told otherwise.

Adobe and by association Dw, has cut back on support for web developers more and more over the last 6 or so years. They do not know or care about what one can now do in a browser, and yes I have talked to the chief executive of Adobe about this within the last year, (as a video conference participant).

Look at all the Adobe products for web development and all one sees is attempts to fit an idea of making something work without the knowledge of how it should work, or any consideration for the specs or end user, (the site visitor). Advancements in web development have been ignored in favour of older methods, with the excuse being given that they older methods are 'tried and tested'.

The support for web developers has all but disapeared from the Adobe sites, replaced by useless short videos that give a completely false impression as to what is required. Looking at other Adobe products and the help they offer users, soon shows that Adobe has/is dropping everything it can that was/is meaningful to web development. Even this forum, (the Dw section) has become a shadow of what it once was, with very little of what html, css, etc being mentioned, mainly because Dw does not support it in any meaningfull way.

No one wants to see Dw disappear, but anyone who does not use Dw anymore is told they are not welcome by/in CAB/pre-release. Innovations in other programs they are not interested in, user requirerments beyond what the Dw project manager requires for his 'hobby' sites are ignored, any changes to the support for web developers is quickly 'shouted down' by acp's, and Adobe personnel cannot do anything to change this, (if they wished to).

There is more time and investment being given to getting a flash alternative using web assembly working than to web development, even though Adobe has been told about the same site policy, (they are trying to get a work around into the specs) and file size limitations. Flash is dead, but not if Adobe has any say, they would prefer to kill of web development, and are succeeding as far as web development products like Dw are concerned.

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

BenPleysier   wrote

I have been passing the problems on to the Dreamweaver team all along, I just do not do it publicly.

It's no good passing the problems to the team if they are not interested.

They must have a designated printer that outputs all PM's, Emails, Pre-Relase Suggestions, Feature Suggestions, User Feedback, Surveys, Industry Analysis, and any other viable suggestion and feature input, etc. That then feeds them directly into a paper shredder, and then on to an incinerator. Don't worry we are being heard.

[osgood_]

That should read 'raised by 50 beta testers out of ? beta testers'........that would be reveiling and somewhat more clear as to how well its being supported.

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

That should read 'raised by 50 beta testers out of ? beta testers'........that would be reveiling and somewhat more clear as to how well its being supported.

Next months donations will be the one to watch, as it is €15000 per month target. I don't expect the beta testers will donate every month.

[osgood_]

Ben will, he'll be getting a Wappler tattoo on his forehead shortly and visting Germany to promote it

[pziecina]

Maybe this one should be locked as well?

Until we can all test wappler every discussion on it is a waste of time.

Can I suggest starting a discussion yourself, not about Wappler but on the pros and cons of visual web development and their current advantages and disadvantages. I personally think anyone using a visual tool that does not allow serious modifications to the code are stuck in the past of what is possible.

Even the cost of coder vs visual tools appears to be a factor, with the visual tool supporter apparently unwilling to pay, whilst the coder is willing to pay if a program matches their requirements. We are now back into the professional vs semi-professional arena, in which cutting edge, (even when well supported by browsers and devices) is ignored by those who do not wish to code.

[W_J_T]

pziecina  wrote

Can I suggest starting a discussion yourself, not about Wappler but on the pros and cons of visual web development and their current advantages and disadvantages. I personally think anyone using a visual tool that does not allow serious modifications to the code are stuck in the past of what is possible.

Even the cost of coder vs visual tools appears to be a factor, with the visual tool supporter apparently unwilling to pay, whilst the coder is willing to pay if a program matches their requirements. We are now back into the professional vs semi-professional arena, in which cutting edge, (even when well supported by browsers and devices) is ignored by those who do not wish to code.

Please don't assume what aspect I am speaking from. My previous posts across many threads, talk about being fully supportive of coding and the need for people to learn. My discussions in these threads however is to the broader discussion.

EDIT: Closed threads and now being moderated again.

[osgood_]

pziecina  wrote

Even the cost of coder vs visual tools appears to be a factor, with the visual tool supporter apparently unwilling to pay, whilst the coder is willing to pay if a program matches their requirements.

I dont know if that's true or not that the 'coder' is willing to pay. It seems an awful lot gravitate towards anything that's free.

I think the question for coders is what's lacking in the current paid for ones which prevents them for buying into them in large numbers.

For me I couldn't use a free one like Atom, VC Code, Sublime, Brackets because they fall at the first hurdle in terms of a usable/friendly code snippets workflow. Whilst coders are meant to code you could argue why do they need a snippets panel...............even I dont want to keep coding a connection/query to a database, jquery link, or re-writing a navigation, modal, etc which is why I have my own code set up in snippets.

Infact is there anything that needs to be included in a modern web editor which would considerably improve the life of a coder beyond certain basic requirements?

[pziecina]

osgood_  wrote

I dont know if that's true or not that the 'coder' is willing to pay. It seems an awful lot gravitate towards anything that's free.

I think the question for coders is what's lacking in the current paid for ones which prevents them for buying into them in large numbers.

Sorry missed this one Os.

I wonder how many 'coders' working in a professional environment are using the 'free' editors?

Dw used to be good at providing the visual helper tools, things like drop-shadows, color conversions and code hints, but since CS6 they have become more like what one would expect in a tool aimed at people just learning about web development, with nothing to offer anyone with experiance beyond that group.

Even the git implementation, which I think is o/k, is missing many features that a team environment require, and shows a lack of knowledge for anything beyond a back-up or personal version control system in its implementation.

[pziecina]

OT

I am seeing that this discussion has been branched to another discussion, (to which I do not have access too). Anyone else seeing this?

Where is this 'other' discussion, (acp forum)?

[Jon Fritz]

I'm not seeing a branch anywhere, are you sure it was this thread?

[pziecina]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jon+Fritz+II  wrote

I'm not seeing a branch anywhere, are you sure it was this thread?

Top of the page, saying that this discussion has been branched to a new discussion -

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2454983

Clicking on the link, gives me the message that I do not have access or authorisation to view content, (remember, I am no longer an acp, or a member of pre-release).

[W_J_T]

I have the same and no access. It may have been routed to the customer service channel mentioned earlier.

[BenPleysier]

[osgood_]

BenPleysier  wrote

That's NOT great - 65 backers .

If they had bought this to market and even 1% (which is low) of their 600000 subscribers came onboard you would be looking at considerably more.

[pziecina]

Until they offer a free trial version, I'm not interested in Wappler or any other program, and I doubt if any but their testers or the drag and drop brigade with more money than sense are interested.

[-Michele]

osgood_  ha scritto

That's NOT great - 65 backers .

If they had bought this to market and even 1% (which is low) of their 600000 subscribers came onboard you would be looking at considerably more.

Wappler is a product that is still at an early stage of development and I think it's hard to convince someone to give money for something that will be ready only in several months (or years... developing a new and more powerful Dreamweaver is a very complex operation).

I hope that DMXzone will resume as soon as possible to update their extensions for Dreamweaver (for example, Framework 7 v2 and the compatibility with App Connect...).

I joined the campaign and I gave them € 349 because I think DMXzone can do it but I hope that they will be able to plan work activities in the coming months, otherwise Wappler could become "a big problem".

[osgood_]

-Michele  wrote

osgood_   ha scritto

That's NOT great - 65 backers .

If they had bought this to market and even 1% (which is low) of their 600000 subscribers came onboard you would be looking at considerably more.

Wappler is a product that is still at an early stage of development and I think it's hard to convince someone to give money for something that will be ready only in several months (or years... developing a new and more powerful Dreamweaver is a very complex operation).

I think if they came clean and gave some sort of timeline that would be more acceptable but no-one has addressed why they even thought it was ready for public beta way back in October/November last year.

What I do know is they seem to be continuously re-writting parts of it which seems to have become a habit. Persoanally I'm not interested in giving anyone 340 quid unless I get something back for it immediately, and it seems neither are many others.

[W_J_T]

BenPleysier  wrote

Why the need to bump the thread, trying to help drive and increase sales Ben ?

BenPleysier  wrote

But your so-called 'perceived conflict of interest' reason for re-opening the discussion is not valid. Because my interests lie with Wappler, it would have been better to have not closed it, it does no harm to have Wappler bandied around as much as possible even if it is in a negative sense. All good advertising for which I do thank you.

It would clearly appear so, based upon your own stated theory and pledged alliance. Working hard to earn your Wappler merits I see. Is that the preferred german pronunciation and meaning you speak of ?

[BenPleysier]

And a good day to you too sir.

Edit: or should I say Madam?

[W_J_T]

BenPleysier  wrote

And a good day to you too sir.

Edit: or should I say Madam?

Is your avatar picture your grandpa or are you honestly this childish at your age? Sadly I would not expect anything more from you concerning responses, you have proven that already.

[BenPleysier]

I do believe that the personal insults have gone a bit far. I know that I have contributed to this but it does need to stop. I'll make a start.