336 new pantone colors

[jesse63]

Hi !

I have a problem: the recently released 336 pantone colors are not included in the latest CS6 InDesign pantone color libraries.

Does anybody know how to get thes new colors integrated in InDesign?

kindly, Jes

[ethanpeetkegler]

…for anyone who has bought the updated books.

Sure, but this is exactly the point, isn't it? At no point in the past was a designer required to buy an updated Pantone book to simply have access to the Pantone library. In fact, this is anathema to design. Not only does it create real barriers to design, it provides no solutions to those problems.

I came to this thread because I'm working on a project for a large client. The creative direction calls for a color that doesn't exist in Adobe's version of the Pantone color books. Of the 10 teams and 4 freelancers connected to the project (so far), only two of them have access to this color. This, it must be pointed out, is not the fault of any of the designers or studios; they are working just as efficiently as they always have. This problem is squarely the fault of Adobe and Pantone. In fact, it must be asked, why does Adobe even bother to include the inaccurate and outdated Pantone color libraries in the first place? If Adobe can't or won't update those libraries, they should be removed as a default offering. If Pantone is unwilling to provide updated and accurate libraries for Adobe software releases, they should ask that their old and incorrect libraries be removed from the software.

This isn't about the cost, either (as was suggested by someone else in this thread). As a project manager, I need to know that I can organize a project without having to worry whether Adobe and Pantone have thrown an arbitrary wrench into the process. It slows design, it slows management, it slows production, and it limits the creative process. There are absolutely no up-sides to having Adobe provide unreliable and flawed Pantone color books.

[SJRiegel]

Of the 10 teams and 4 freelancers connected to the project (so far), only two of them have access to this color.

This issue seems a very easy one to deal with. Just have one of the designer who has the color to save out an ASE file, and distribute it to anyone working on the project. It can then be loaded to InDesign or Illustrator. Whoever specified this color must have the books; I can't imagine choosing a spot color without looking at a printed sample of it.

Problem solved.

[ethanpeetkegler]

Just have one of the designer who has the color to save out an ASE file, and distribute it to anyone working on the project.

You've illustrated the problem perfectly. If Adobe's Pantone color books are defective, why are they included with the software? The added step of providing a Pantone color book file with every creative direction is a fundamental change in process, and is a step that has literally never been necessary until now. Even after providing the ASE file to the teams over which we have control, there is no way to ensure that everyone involved in production will also have access to it. When this project comes down to the last minute (as every major project will), I have no way of knowing that the various teams will be working with the same color books.

What happens when Pantone decides to update their color book during production schedule? Which color book do we use? What happens if another company working on an unrelated project provides a newer Pantone color book to the agencies with which we're working during the year-long production schedule? Will the designers be required to switch between these libraries? What if they accidentally have the other company's Pantone library open when they are working on (and save) files from our project? Do we provide an ASE file every time we send a file, or can they be imbedded into the file itself? Are the updated Pantone color books distinguishable between releases, or will new books overwrite old ones? Will the next update to the Adobe Suite overwrite any of the existing color books? How are these kinds of conflicts resolved, or can they be?

I seriously could keep going, but we all get the point. Like I said, this is a fundamental change to the design/production process. And neither Adobe nor Pantone are offering anything even resembling a solution.

[rob day]

What happens when Pantone decides to update their color book during production schedule? Which color book do we use?...

a fundamental change in process, and is a step that has literally never been necessary until now.

Nothing.

If you are printing spot colors (which is the intended use of the Pantone+ Solid libraries) it's up to the press person to correctly mix the solid ink and get a match to the physical Pantone solid ink swatch. The color mode and definition of the swatch in InDesign only affects the accuracy of the color's display or its simulation in a composite proof, and not the way it separates and prints.

There was a (one time) fundamental change in the way Pantone spot colors are handled starting with CS6. There is now a clear distinction between a spot color and a process color simulation of a spot color. Solid spot inks now have a single Lab definition and not an ambiguous CMYK definition. With a Lab definition I can accurately display a spot color like Pantone Orange 021C, which would be impossible with any CMYK process ink mix.

For designers who think there should be a single CMYK definition for a process color simulation of a spot, there is now the Pantone+ Color Bridge library, which isolates the problems inherent in that workflow. There was an implication in the old system that solid inks could be accurately simulated with process inks— some magic CMYK definition handed down from Pantone would print Orange 021C—there is no process magenta+yellow combination that will accurately print 021C. For colors that are in the CMYK gamut the magic numbers only work if the press conditions match some (unknown profile). Pantone can't provide accurate simulation values because there is no single CMYK definition that would work for all press conditions.

[Danny Whitehead.]

I must admit a certain amount of schadenfreude at the frustrations of those who have been misusing spot swatches for decades.

Still, if there's a villain here, it's Pantone. They should publish their libraries for download by anyone (including Adobe to include with their software), as I think they did in the past, instead on insisting on the installation of a frankly dreadful piece of software. I still randomly lose access to my PCM libraries. The only good thing about it is the ability to quickly get a Pantone reference with a spectrophotometer.

I'll be over the moon if the day ever comes that an open source method of ink specification makes Pantone history.

[rob day]

Still, if there's a villain here, it's Pantone.

I think of the Pantone system as intellectual property—the maintenance and accurate printing of the solid ink swatch books doesn't strike me as inexpensive or easy to maintain, so I wouldn't expect the books to be free. The point of the system is to have well printed swatch books for spot color reference and that's what Pantone sells. Why should they care about or support users who haven't bought their product or think the Pantone system is some kind of elaborate color picker built into Adobe products?

[ethanpeetkegler]

While I appreciate the merits of any good debate, the fact remains that Adobe is still providing an out-dated and inaccurate set of Pantone swatches within their products. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is finding a viable solution, and I have heard none. There are two easy solutions, as I see it:

1. Adobe should remove the inaccurate, incomplete, and outdated Pantone color books distributed with its software.
2. Adobe and Pantone should work together to ensure that updated color books are provided to consumers.

Of course, there's the "hard way" (which seems to be the route that Adobe and Pantone prefer): Cede responsibility to the design community. Debate all you want, but every single design agency will have to make a shift in their production because of this change. I'm not kidding, walk into any design agency and announce that Adobe no longer updates their Pantone color books AND that they will, in fact, have to buy a new piece of software to update those books themselves. Watch their reaction. I've now had to do that exact thing several times.

[rob day]

inaccurate set of Pantone swatches

The only issue is when the 336 new colors will be added to a CC update.

There's no inaccuracy in the existing solid swatches that ship with CC because they are instrument read Lab values and again those values have no effect on spot color output. As Danny mentions it would be possible to take a spectrophotometer reading of any Pantone swatch and use your own reading for display and proofing and the spot separation would still output correctly.

If I originate a design using one of the new 336 solid colors and hand it off to you, you don't need to have the new swatches installed in order to open my doc and have the color display and separate accurately. I can use Pantone 2004C and the named swatch will travel with the document and its display values will remain as Lab 89|2|51.

If the agencies are using the solid ink swatches to pick process colors and expect some magic CMYK number that matches the Pantone swatch (from either Adobe or Pantone) then they have a flawed color workflow. They are creating their own color management problem that has no solution.

[ethanpeetkegler]

If the agencies are using the solid ink swatches to pick process colors and expect some magic CMYK number that matches the Pantone swatch…

You keep bringing this up, but nobody else has even suggested that this is what's happening. I'm not sure why you're stuck on this thought, but it's not about a direct Pantone/CMYK match (which is impossible), it's about working with an accurate color book. Yes, you're right, designers can essentially ignore the Pantone color book and work with self-set spot colors for production. But I hope you can see that there is a very real problem when designers have to ignore the Pantone color book.

Again, like you just indicated, Adobe and Pantone have shifted responsibility for maintaining accurate, updated color books to us, the design community. Whether you like the decision or are disappointed by it, it doesn't matter. It's a fundamental change in the production process. Bottom line, Adobe should never be providing outdated color books, and Pantone shouldn't allow them to be distributed as if they are current.

[rob day]

I'm not sure why you're stuck on this thought, but it's not about a direct Pantone/CMYK match

Because that's the only case where you would run into an real production problem.

If Pantone were to take all new readings for the solid colors and change the Lab values in a revised library, it would have zero impact on production. If the Lab values for Orange 021 changed from 61|66|85 to 60|70|85 there would be a slight shift in the display preview, but the output wouldn't change at all.

So it's hard to see what the problem is other than you can't easily originate one of the new 336 colors, but then you should be picking solid colors from a printed reference and in that case you have bought the swatch book and Pantone is providing the updated swatches.

[Peter Spier]

I believe the complaint is that the new colors don't appear in the lists in some versions.

[rob day]

Ok, I thought we were talking about inaccurate color definitions.

[ethanpeetkegler]

Ah, I see your misunderstanding. No, I'm referring to the inaccurate and outdated color books. A few of the designers on our teams have thought of a couple analogies, but this is the best so far:

• It would be like a car company who simply stopped upgrading the stereo systems in all of their cars, but only installed the same Bose CD player from 2009, year after year, in every model. Then when customer asked for an upgraded stereo, they would say, "Sorry, you'll have to talk to Bose about it. It's not our problem."

A loose analogy, but a good one.

[David Cardillo]

the issue is _not_ that no one can get access to the colors — if the swatch is in the design, it's there, and it's up to whomever does the separations to use the correct ink

_My_ issue is the designers who keep coming up to me and asking me why the color swatch they've torn out of the new physical book they bought does't appear in the Creative Suite.

Yeah, they can type it in manually. That's what I tell them to do. *But that is contrary to having a standardized workflow, and the purpose of having standard digital libraries in the first place.*

My issue is not that a particular PMS color from an older book will look different from the same one from a newer book when printed on a laser printer.

My issue is consistency and uniformity.

Because I still have to add all these colors to my GMG RIP for proofing. And if every designer is making up their own swatches by hand, that's not going to happen.

[Jane Doe Graphix]

I just purchased the Pantone + Formula Books and installed the Pantone Color Manager and still don't have all colors. My client has picked color 2032 which was a color from the 336 new colors formula guide which is now obsolete according to the message from the Color manager. This is the newest book I could find so this is a little crazy.

[Peter Spier]

I don't know if you and I bought the same books, but I just looked for the 2032, and it seems to be in the supplement section of my book, while the 7703 I needed was in the regular section. I'm not seeing the suplement colors, either, but I haven't made any attempt to use color manager to import them.

[Jane Doe Graphix]

Hi Peter,

Sorry for the late reply.

After updating and installing the manager I was able to export all swatches. I think we may have different books. Mine does not have an extra book for the new colors;  they are all included in the coated and uncoated books. I got the version with the fancy covers.

[rob day]

and installed the Pantone Color Manager and still don't have all colors

The Pantone installation doesn't automatically add the libraries. I was able to add the 336 book to ID by clicking the Fan Deck icon in the lower right corner of the manager, choose a book, then File>Export>InDesign.

[Peter Spier]

Color Manager is telling me the 336 books are obsolete and cannot be exported or used, BUT I was able to select the Pantone + Solid Coated V2 book and export that to ID, and the 336 swatches show up in that one (which is listed separately from the original Pantone + Solid Coated book in the libraries dropdown).

[rob day]

Color Manager is telling me the 336 books are obsolete and cannot be exported or used

Right, I used the demo version over a year ago to get the 336 libraries

[Danny Whitehead.]

The 336 new colours were merged with all the existing ones to create the 'V2' library, I think some time around spring. You can get the V2 libraries by doing the 'Pantone LIVE' update.

The funny thing is, the obsolete 336 library remains in the list of fan decks, with a suggestion that you delete it, while seeming to provide no obvious means to do so. It's a bit of a shoddy application, really. Ah well, they've got enough on their plate supplying phone cases and toothbrushes that aren't the colour they say they are.

[MW Design]

@Danny...yep, it is a funky application. Even their tech support have issues with it. Seems like whoever wrote it for them aren't being pressed to make it any better either. It is flake and can loose its little brain and one has to delete its preferences folder once in a while.

Then again, it has enabled me to use colors I wouldn't otherwise have access to in adobe products...the other application vendors seem to keep them reasonably updated with the main swatches as they update their applications.

Mike

[Jane Doe Graphix]

Thanks very much everyone.

I'm getting the same message "Color Manager is telling me the 336 books are obsolete and cannot be exported or used". I'm about to try to exporting the current books anyways. I just noticed that my updates did not take last night either. I tried again today and all is updated. Hopefully my color will be there upon export. I'll let you all know if it worked.

[MW Design]

The version 2 books will export just fine. You may need to exit and restart ID for it to see them. Also, the PCM doesn't always play nice with multiple installations like I have and I have needed to copy the export to the other installation's folders before.

Mike

[Jane Doe Graphix]

OK. Finally it worked! Thanks for your help everyone.

This Color Manager should automatically export the new books or at least come with more detailed instructions. It's kinda annoying that the old books remain on my Adobe products, cluttering up my color book lists. I guess I''ll just manually put them somewhere else for safe keeping.

Danny Whitehead,

Agreed! We should easily be able to delete the obsolete books. What a pain in the butt!