Acrobat tags not matching InDesign tags

[Oriana808]

Hi,

Using InDesign 18.0 to create accessible pdfs. Issues as follows:

1. Sometimes a pdf generated from InDesign will show the name of the style sheet along with the tag, ie. instead of <H1> it will show as <Title_H1>. This happens with numerous tags. If I clean up all of the paragraph styles in InDesign as neatly as possible and check each one carefully - in some cases this solves the issue, in other cases it does not.

2. A very big problem is that Acrobat will change the tag altogether, so an InDesign tag of <H3> becomes <H4> in Acrobat.

I have very carefully checked all aspects of the tags, the paragraph styles, etc. Of course I'm working on a deadline and spending hours trying to find a solution is not feasible, have wasted a few hours so far. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Any style overrides? Make sure there is none whatsover, nu plus signs behind the Paragraph styles names in the Paragraph styles panel?

[Oriana808]

I've attached a screenshot of the paragraph styles - not sure if that's what you wanted to see :).

There are some style overrides here and there, nothing overboard. The document would have far too many paragraph styles if I made one for every little bit of kerning, etc.

Thanks 🙂

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Does Acrobat support headings past <h4>? I've run into tools and niche standards that assume four levels are enough.

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

@James Gifford—NitroPress, yes, Acrobat supports the entire PDF/UA standard headings, H1 – H6.

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Yes, H1 to H6

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

I can tell you like InDesign for ACC lol.

By @Oriana808

Ha ha!

Absolutely.  *&^%$#@! Adobe.

Have a lot of family members, friends, employees, etc. who are blind or have low vision, so accessibility is in my blood. One of my close friends developed the first screen reader for computers in the 1980s, and I've been working on accessibility tech ever since.

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

@Oriana808, let's try this theory.

In our shop, which does a lot of accessibility troubleshooting, we've seen cases where the document has some violations of the PDF/UA standards in one area that affect another area of the PDF's tag tree.

I've reviewed your screen capture and spotted some PDF/UA tag violations, and maybe they're triggering their wierd tag issues you're finding. Details are after the screen capture.

Comments on your Export Tag settings.

Table Accessibility:

1. All accessibility is based on the table structure, which is defined by the main table tags:

• <Table> the entire table
• <TR> table row
• <TH> table header (Not a heading!)
• <TD> table data cell

1. There are no table headings in the PDF/UA standard, only column headers and row headers (the "stems" that identify each column or row).
2. So regardless of what you name your paragraph styles to format various parts of your table, set them all to Automatic and let the conversion utility do its work.

Tables of Content:

1. All of the TOC's elements must be wrapped inside a <TOC> parent tag, and each element wrapped in a <TOCI> child tag.
2. Use InDesign's TOC utility and you'll get the correct tagging, as well as the accessible hyperlinks that are needed.

Footnotes:

1. The two parts of a footnote must be tagged as:
        <Reference> for the citation in the body text, and
        <Note> for the footnote text at the bottom of the page.
2. This is done automatically if — and that's a BIG IF — you set up the footnote options and coordinating styles. So put a little bit of effort in setting them at the start and your work will be done done done!
3. Create a Character Style <Reference>, named to match the actual tag name. You don't have to have to define any fonts or sizes, as the system default's to the body text font in superscript. I highlighted mine in yellow so you could find it in my screen capture below.
4. Create a Paragraph Style <Note>, again named to match the actual tag name. Choose whatever font, size, etc. you want. I put mine in bold and green.
5. Then set your Type / Footnote Options as shown in the screen capture.
6. And of course, USE the insert Footnote utility, or if you're importing a Word.docs that uses Word's footnotes, then make sure you set your import options to receive the footnotes.

When done right, everything works seamlessly and you get the right tags in the PDF tag tree.

The <Note> tag will appear at the end of the paragraph where the <Reference> citation is located.

Sest up Styles and Footnote Options.

Hope this helps!

[Oriana808]

Table Accessibility:

1. All accessibility is based on the table structure, which is defined by the main table tags:

• <Table> the entire table
• <TR> table row
• <TH> table header (Not a heading!)
• <TD> table data cell

1. There are no table headings in the PDF/UA standard, only column headers and row headers (the "stems" that identify each column or row).
2. So regardless of what you name your paragraph styles to format various parts of your table, set them all to Automatic and let the conversion utility do its work."

(sorry tried to pick out some quotes but not sure how to unquote myself).

I will explain why the styles are set up the way they are. First I work for a company that dictates how accessible files are built :). When it comes to tables, they want to show where "headings" are within the table. For example, sometimes the first row does not have a "table head", but each row has a "heading" (example provided) - in this case we create "side headings". Sometimes there are headings not only in the top rows. Separating tables can prove to also be a nightmare.

 

Tables of Content:

1. All of the TOC's elements must be wrapped inside a <TOC> parent tag, and each element wrapped in a <TOCI> child tag.
2. Use InDesign's TOC utility and you'll get the correct tagging, as well as the accessible hyperlinks that are needed.

In this particular department, the TOC has to be done manually because of what they include and don't include, therefore it doesn't show up as <TOC>. It is created using Hyperlinks.

Footnotes:

1. The two parts of a footnote must be tagged as:
        <Reference> for the citation in the body text, and
        <Note> for the footnote text at the bottom of the page.

 The automatic Footnotes are an absolute nightmare for this client. The software is built for mostly straightforward documents, which is not what I'm dealing with. Therefore we use Cross References instead.

All said and done, I work on 100s of documents, (and there are 1000s of documents worked on by other designers who follow this) and only come across the issues I'm having with a handful.

Really appreciate all of your help!

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Don't confuse text Headers: H1 etc. with table heads; <TH> for the header rows/colums! (Set the scope!)

Text in table cells (so also in <TH>) can only be <p>! Spans in a table head are fine as long as you define the scope and relations.

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

Thanks for the background information @Oriana808.

It's OK if you want to skip using InDesign's tools, but the end result in the PDF must meet the PDF/UA-1 standard. InDesign's tools are developed to help most people create, design, and tag their material as easily as possible.

Tagging a footnote as <P> is not compliant: It doesn't accurately identify the content as a footnote. Regardless of whether you hand-create the tag itself or do it automatically with InDesign's footnote utility, the tag needs to be <Note> so that it's semantically correct per the standard — and understandable by those using assistive technologies.

And the text citation must have the <Reference> tag. 

In your screen capture of table headings, it looks like there are places where the terms heading and header are confused. Headers trigger specific information and features to screen reader users that help them navigate and understand tables, as well as find their location in the table. Headings don't do this as efficiently, and can also add needless verbosity to the user's experience. 

Accessibility standards go only so far in defining the do's and don'ts of what to do. The rest is up for us to interpret as best we can. We consult with several financial institutions and I wouldn't recommend some of your company's decisions. 

Good luck!

[Oriana808]

Thanks so much Bevi, I will pass this info along to the company.

One issue I'm trying to wrap my head around is this:

In my example of tables, I named "Headers" as being official Table Headers.

I named "Headings" as being headings within the table itself, ie they could occur in the middle of a table. Because they would be in the middle of the table, I can't make them Table Headers.

If the client wants "Headings" to have a hierarchy within a table, I'm assuming this can't/shouldn't be done at all?

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Because they would be in the middle of the table, I can't make them Table Headers.

If the client wants "Headings" to have a hierarchy within a table, I'm assuming this can't/shouldn't be done at all?

By @Oriana808

 Not in InDesign, that has te be done in Acrobat, but make sure that in that case you set all Header ID's and associate the data with the correct Header ID's, set scope etc. That is what we call a (very) 'complicated' table. Tools like AxesPDF are the best tool to remidiate such tables in Acrobat.

But in most cases simplifying table or break them up in different simpeler tables is a better solution...

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

Because they would be in the middle of the table, I can't make them Table Headers.

If the client wants "Headings" to have a hierarchy within a table, I'm assuming this can't/shouldn't be done at all?

By @Oriana808

Not in InDesign, that has te be done in Acrobat, but make sure that in that case you set all Header ID's and associate the data with the correct Header ID's, set scope etc. That is what we call a (very) 'complicated' table. Tools like AxesPDF are the best tool to remidiate such tables in Acrobat.

But in most cases simplifying table or break them up in different simpeler tables is a better solution...

By @Frans v.d. Geest

Frans has given good advice. He teaches graphic design and accessibility with InDesign.

Although it's not illegal (per the current PDF/UA-1 standard) to have <Hx> tags within a table, it's also not a standardized format, either. That means most assistive technologies won't know what to do with them, and end users are not expecting <Hx>, which then causes confusion. And a lot more verbosity, too.

So no, we do not recommend using <Hx> tags within a table.

One problem with using headings (H1-H6) in tables is that all headings in a file must be in a sequential hierarchical order. If H1 is used to designate the file's title and H2 identifies the first level of subhead, then what is the first heading level to use inside the table itself?

• H3 if the table is inside an H2 subhead section?
• H4 if the table is inside an H3 sub-subhead?

This drives us InDesigners nuts, especially when we have many tables in a document: nothing is consistent and the heading levels change from table to table.

And you should hear what it does to those using screen readers. Gah! <grin> Total confusion. They're lost.

So all of your headings/headers must be tagged with a <TH> header tag because they are used by screen readers to identify the column or row the user is in. And they are read in sequence. Example: US Census table, total population of females.

<TH> Headers are highlighted in yellow that affect "female" data.

The voicing, when set to "default" settings by the user:

Label

Sex and Age

Total Population

Female

Estimate

165,316,674

But as Frans said, you'll need to set Scope, Span, and Cell IDs on the headers, and InDesign doesn't do a complete enough job on this. Note, the header "Sex and Age" must be merged across all 3 columns: Label, Estimate, and Percent.

AxesPDF is a good tool for correcting tables in PDFs. But we recommend an even better tool, Made To Tag by axaio software https://www.axaio.com/doku.php/en:products:madetotag  and see their table tutorial at https://help.axaio.com/m/madetotag-manual/l/1614261-tagging-indesign-tables-with-madetotag. It gives you tagging control of the table right inside InDesign so you don't have to waste time fixing tables afterwards in Acrobat.

Personally, I use Made To Tag whenever I have one or more substantial tables. It makes it so easy. Worth the price, especially when doing complex financial or data tables.

Another benefit is that Made To Tag exports a very clean tag tree for the entire PDF (not just the tables) that I like better than what Adobe produces. We purchase our licenses directly from axaio so that we get updates and tech support very quickly. I highly respect the company.

Disclaimer:

Although I know the people behind the companies mentioned, neither me nor my firm get any compensation. No sales commissions, kickbacks, or freebies.

In this forum, those of us listed as "Community Experts" are volunteers who've been invited by Adobe to help other designers (or PDFers, Photoshop gurus, etc.). We don't get paid for answering questions. Just a nice warm feeling when someone says "thanks, that worked."

Personally, I've been in the accessibility world my entire life. Many family members have been or are blind, and others have physical and cognitive disabilities. Professionally, I began working on accessibility standards 25+ years ago when the digital industry was just starting. Today, I'm a US delegate to the ISO committees that create the PDF and PDF/UA standards, so I read that technobable every week for my volunteer work on the committees, as well as to advise our large corporate and government clients.

I, too, want to put <Hx> in tables, so I'm working with others on the committee to pitch the idea of TableSubHeads (not to be confused with <Hx> headings). But if the idea flies, it will be many years before some concept like that is developed, tested, and written into the standards so that you and I can then use them. Who-ie! Hopefully, we'll still be in the industry by then <grin>.

Now you know more than you ever expected to get! <grin>

[Frans v.d. Geest]

@Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com Yes, love MadeToTag as well, it even takes Tables out the P-tag, allows BlockQuote and different Captions role mapping, and its table tools are great, as it does this in the InDesign document itself (AxesPDF is also good, but that is afterwards in the exported PDF and Windows only...)

[Oriana808 · Accepted solution]

This is fantastic. I've been wondering about the table "headings" tagging treatment by the client for a while - this clears that up!

I've passed along all of the pertinent information regarding proper accessiblity tagging to the client and they're actually very happy to receive it, and are quite interested in the Made To Tag software.

Thank you and everyone else so much for all of the much needed help in this matter. Very much appreciated!!

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

You're welcome, @Oriana808. Always glad to help.

And I'm grateful you stayed with us through the "tough" discussion parts!

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Even if you do not use the automatic InDesign function, still a TOC (with links) should be tagged as such. So you have to edit and create these tags in Acrobat yourself. That is a lot of work. You have set styles up called 'TOC:TOC Head' etc, so it is very easy to  use those to automatically generate the TOC, (I guess that is why they were created in the first place) but those can not have a H1 etc. tag as H-tags are not allowed in a TOC! So they have to be set to atomatic, in other words: the combination 'text in a table of contents' and 'headers H1 etc.' exclude each other...

To be honest: either your company does not fully understand or you did not fully understand your company's demands...

There are a lot of things wrong with your explanation for the choices made to be honest... 😞

[Oriana808]

@Frans v.d. Geest

To be honest: either your company does not fully understand or you did not fully understand your company's demands...

By @Frans v.d. Geest

Thanks for the vote of confidence 🙂

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Meant no disrespect, but there are some strange 'justifications' given for the choices made that make little sense...

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

I can't imagine Frans showing disrespect for anyone. He's one of the kindest experts in the forum!

But he does say what needs to be said, even when we don't want to hear it. Just like a best friend does in our personal lives.

Learn TOCs.

Learn Footnotes.

Learn Tables.

And then revamp your company's requirements.

Everyone must follow the standards. We don't get to make up our own interpretations or standards. I'm about as close as anyone who COULD make up a standard, and even I have to follow what my 2-3 dozen committee members decide...even when I don't like the standard!