ALL CAPS and UPPER CASE difference

[sPretzel]

This is really a question about type.

I noticed, typing a couple of words, that there is a spacing difference between setting the words as all caps and settings them individually to upper case. Looking more closely at kerning and tracking in both, I don't see any difference. Character code is also the same.

Try it, in any font, with the words:

EDGAR ALLAN POE (each character typed as upper case)

Edgar Allan Poe (entire selection set to all caps)

1. So why are they spaced differently?

2. What is the best practice in such a case: use individual character upper case or use all caps?

Thanks.

[Eugene Tyson]

It would be built into the font.

Uppercase would be used for typing uppercase letters beside individual letters - like Edgar Allen Poe.

All caps could be a subset of the font - and it treatts EDGAR ALLEN POE differently - in all caps - than it does when typed when using uppercase.

This is probably done by the font designer, so that the font can be used in all caps - with a better spacing arrangement for uppercase letters together.

[sPretzel]

Hi Eugene,

Thanks for the response. I agree but I would have expected to see kerning or tracking differences between the two versions, because they all indicate the same capital letter character in the font.

[rob day]

Hi @sPretzel I think as Eugene suggests it is the type designer’s decision. I don’t see it in all fonts–doesn’t happen with Type 1 fonts, and with OTF fonts it seems to depend on the designer:

FontFont’s Eureka (Type 1)

Adobe’s Minion Pro OTF

Emigre’s Vista OTF:

[sPretzel]

Interesting Rob. Thanks for putting this together. My gripe is that there is no distinction in kerning and tracking between the two. And that the fact that there can be a difference doesn't make any sense to me. I wonder if it is really a decision by the font designer or an oversight!

[rob day]

Actually I’m not seeing it happen much with my font library—seems to be limited to Adobe Pro fonts. Bottom is Adobe Minion Pro, Garamond Pro, Myriad Pro, and Jenson Pro:

[J E L]

Interesting, @rob day Thanks for showing that. Good to know!

[sPretzel]

Migintosh mentions that there is also the "Change Case" option. I tried uppercase there to compare and so far, I haven't seen a difference between Change Case>UPPERCASE and typing each character as uppercase.

BUT, I tried the issue discussed in this thread in Illustrator and there, I don't see a difference between the two versions (all caps and each character as uppercase). So there is a difference in behaviour between InDesign and Illustrator? If that's the case, then it looks more like a bug in InDesign than the font designer's intent or omission! My expectation is that there be no difference between any of these versions.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

The Change Case command is the same as retyping it. 

[sPretzel]

Hi Creamer Training. What are you referring to by "retyping"?

Can we go back to the original post and what rob day has been showing? The issue is a difference in spacing between A- "all caps", and B- "typing individual characters as upper case (or capital letters)". I expect to see no difference in spacing between the two. Rob pointed out that he does not see a difference for all fonts and only so far sees it for Adobe Pro fonts. I then added that where InDesign shows a difference, Illustrator does not. That's where we are. At this point, we are trying to figure out if this is behaviour intended by the font designer or perhaps a bug (ID and AI behave differently) or something else.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Apologies. I was responding to this statement: "... I haven't seen a difference between Change Case>UPPERCASE and typing each character as uppercase." I was just clarifying that the two are functionally the same, so you would not see the difference. I should have said "typing" and not "retyping". 

(Then someone brought up writing styles which had nothing to do with what I said.)

[sPretzel]

Okay Creamer Training, so we can exclude the options in "Change Case" from the discussion. They weren't in the initial post anyway. That leaves us exactly where I just explained.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

I believe the text typed in as uppercase is using slightly different glyphs as the all caps text. 

When I selected the all caps text and replaced it with the Alternative for Selection, the spacing was almost identical to the uppercase text (but not exactly identical).

Below are three samples:

1. Typed in uppercase (with caps lock on)
2. All Caps character style applied to normal text (typed with initial caps)
3. All Caps version with replacement alternatives 

I also came across something by accident...

If you apply an all caps character style to text typed in uppercase, the spacing changes (for no good reason). Again, it must be using slightly different glyphs--same letter shape but with different sidebearings.

[sPretzel]

As mentioned earlier, when I checked the Glyphs panel, "all caps" and "each character typed as uppercase" use the same characters (same character code in the Glyphs panel) and same kerning and tracking settings. Yet, they can produce different character spacing.

Once we get to the bottom of this (if we do), the question to answer is:

which is the font designer's intent in terms of spacing: "all caps" or "each character typed as uppercase"?

One more clue. In AI where there is no difference between the two versions, outlines of the corresponding text matches the spacing of "each character typed as uppercase" in ID. So I would tend to think that the font designer's intent in terms of spacing is "each character typed as uppercase", rather than "all caps". 

As a side-note on the topic of "Change Case". Is it a destructive command? In other words, is it possible to go back to what was originally typed once the Change Case command is used, or is the original type gone for good? I can't seem to go back!

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

>>As a side-note on the topic of "Change Case". Is it a destructive command? 

Yes.

[J E L]

@sPretzel Yes, I always been aware of this. Personally, I never type the original text in all caps because if I need to switch that text back to title or sentence case using styles, I'd have to go back and retype those words. Using InDesign, I am used to the different kerning when looking at type written in all caps vs. styling with all caps. With some fonts, there is practically no difference. So, I always type or import text in title or sentence case and then apply all caps via a paragraph or character style.

[sPretzel]

Hi Jain,

Just to be sure I understood correctly:

Personally, I never type the original text in all caps because if I need to switch that text back to title or sentence case using styles, I'd have to go back and retype those words.

By @J E L

You mean you never type the original text as individual uppercase characters?

[J E L]

@sPretzel Ha, well, I see I broke my own "never say never" rule! To clarify, I don't type in individual uppercase characters when it comes to headlines, subheadings, titles, first words of a paragraph, and so on, in case I, or someone else, needs to switch it to sentence or title case (or small caps). I do type original text that are initials or acronyms (i.e., IBM) in all caps. Does that make sense?

I realize it's probably easy enough (thanks to @Peter Kahrel) to run a find/replace script or GREP style to convert ALL CAPS to another case if needed.

[Migintosh]

…because if I need to switch that text back to title or sentence case using styles, I'd have to go back and retype those words.

By @J E L

But there's also this:

[sPretzel]

Good point Migintosh. See my post in response to Rob Day.

[J E L]

@Migintosh @Dave Creamer of IDEAS Yes, this works for an individual instance when you want to make a quick change. But for me, it's easier to get the text written in the right case before designing the text.

Also, unless I've missed it somewhere, the command doesn't distinguish between Associated Press or Chicago Manual of Style when it comes to Title Case. For example, the word "with" is capitalised in title case in AP, but not in Chicago. And look what that method does with a word such as InDesign!

AP: Using Title Case With Adobe Indesign.

Chicago: Using Title Case with Adobe Indesign.

So, I can't rely on this command to always make the change properly. The Change Case command is not the same as retyping it.

[rob day]

Why not make a Cap style with reverse tracking for the few fonts where it happens?

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

 If one retyped it exactly as the Change Case command states, it is the same as retyping it. Initial caps is initial caps; uppercase is uppercase; lowercase is lowercase; etc. I thought it was obvious, but the change case command is a "dumb" command. It will do just what it says regardless of the word or writing style.  I never said anything the Change Case following a writing style (or common sense) --that's the editor's job.

[Willi Adelberger]

In my experience the tracking changes with the language. If you are writing only in CAPS many fonts react different, as if no language is token than when you use CAPS as style where the letters are written in a normal way but are changed to capital letters via style. In the second case, the spell checker is working ok, in the first not. I know only that language properties can be saved into a font. But I am not deep enough in to come to a full conclusion.