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S
Stavre0D4C
Known Participant
October 1, 2021
Answered

Color settings, export to CMYK etc.

  • October 1, 2021
  • 4 replies
  • 16548 views

 

My experience with Indesign is limited to working with text and rarely some grayscale images. Now I'm trying to make a document with color images.

 

I prefer an RGB workflow and I plan to:


a) Export the final product to CMYK (e.g. FOGRA39) or

 

b) Export with no color change, with ICC profiles included and then I will convert to CMYK in Acrobat.

Some of the images have ICC profiles, some don't. I assume it's good to preserve them, they are there for a reason.

 

So now I'm experimenting with the settings and I have these questions:

 

1. Whenever I choose CMYK: FOGRA39 in Edit>Color Settings and I try to export a PDF, I get that message: "The preset specifies source profiles that don't match the current colour settings file". If I choose US Swop in Edit>Color Settings, this doesn't happen. Why?

 

2. Should I choose at export: include all the profiles, tagged source profiles or all RGB and tagged CMYK profiles?

 

3. Preserve numbers: yes or no?

 

4. My RGB workspace is sRGB (in Edit>Color Settings). I set Assign profiles to Discard (Use the current workspace). Is this OK?

 

5. As far as I understand, playing with the Edit>Color Settings only affects the way Indesign displays the colors on the screen and this is not something destructive?

 

Thank you very much

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer rob day

Also, Preserve Numbers can be useful if you need to send the same job to two different presses with very different profiles—i.e. Coated GRACoL and US Newsprint (SNAP). In that case you might build most of your source InDesign colors as RGB, but need to protect certain CMYK colors like black or 1-color grays.

 

See this thread:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/convert-mag-advert-profile-from-fogra39-working-to-isocoated-v2-eci-icc-via-pdf/td-p/12392821

 

 

 

4 replies

S
Stavre0D4CAuthor
Known Participant
October 2, 2021

 

Test Screen Name and rob day, thank you for your time and your useful advices.

 

Meanwhile, I contacted the printer and they do things a bit differently than I expected. Maybe they're more "old school".

 

He sent me a .joboptions file with their settings and here are some of them:

 

Compatibility: Acrobat 4 (PDF 1.3) - I assume they do this to avoid live transparencies. The transparency flatenner's resolution is set to High. I made a test page and it looks fine, but I have to check the whole document for problems.

 

Output settings:
Color Conversion: No


But then, in the lower section (PDF/X), it says:
Output Intent Profile Name: [name of the CMYK standard]
Output condition identifier: [name of the CMYK standard]

 

The printer said that they don't actually follow any CMYK standard, it's just they have to pick one in the settings. I don't know if this way of working is ussual. They accept any CMYK content and he explained me how they handle it, but I didn't understand everything. Also, he said that they ignore the ICC profiles.

 

In short, I don't think I can expect a perfect color accuracy from this printer. But depending on the budget, maybe I'll go there anyway.

 

The compression settings are as follows:

ZIP, Color and grayscale: Bicubic downsampling: 300 dpi (I wonder is this mandatory, but I forgot to ask. I'm aware that 300 dpi is the ussual resolution for print, but I wonder can you use a higher one and will the machine accept it or it will downsample it anyway). Monochrome is set to 1200 dpi.

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
October 2, 2021

If there is an Output Intent included then it would be a PDF/X—it sounds like PDF/X-3, is the Standard set to PDF/X-3:2002?

 

PDF/X-1a flattens live transparency and converts all process color to the designated CMYK Destination space. The PDF’s CMYK color is DeviceCMYK (no embedded profiles). The Output Intent Profile lets the printer know what the expected CMYK output space is, but the color itself is not profiled. Spot colors are left unchanged.

 

PDF/X-3 flattens live transparency, but allows a mix of CMYK, RGB and Lab process color—all RGB objects get an embedded profile. CMYK images with embedded profiles that conflict with document’s CMYK profile keep their embedded profile, otherwise all document CMYK gets exported as DeviceCMYK (no profile). The expectation is the DeviceCMYK values will output unchanged to the Output Intent. Spot colors are left unchanged.

 

PDF/X-4 is generally the same as PDF/X-3 but keeps transparency live.

 

Also, he said that they ignore the ICC profiles.

They probably mean they ignore CMYK profiles, but if they are also ignoring RGB profiles sending RGB color would likely be a problem.

 

 

    S
    Stavre0D4CAuthor
    Known Participant
    October 7, 2021

    I think the missing piece for you is understanding the difference between Convert to Profile... and Assign Profile...

     

    Convert to Profile changes the output values and attempts to keep the original color appearance. You can see that happening in Photoshop when you use Edit>Convert to Profile and look at the new output values in the Info panel.

     

    Here I’ve duplicated an RGB image—both have AdobeRGB assigned (which you can see in the lower left corner). The swatches on the right have color samplers, which show in the Info panel:

     

     

    If I convert the top RGB version to Coated FOGRA27 via Edit>Convert to Profile, the image appearance doesn’t change and the Info panel samplers (set to Actual Color) show the FOGRA CMYK output values

     

     

    If I convert the bottom copy to US Newsprint (SNAP), the color appearance is also maintained because on the conversion the US Newsprint (SNAP) profile is also assigned to the image. However the conversion to the newsprint profile produces very different output numbers:

     

     

     

     

    Now if I assign a different profile to the newsprint CMYK via Edit>Assign Profile... the output values don’t change because there hasn’t been a conversion, but the preview changes with the new profile assignment to show how the unchanged US Newsprint CMYK values would print on a  US Web Coated SWOP profiled press:

     

     

     


     

    Thank you once again for your effort, rob day. Indeed, I confuse some things and I have to learn a lot.

     

    Exactly for this reason, I hired an experienced designer, who was supposed to help me with advices and who was supoosed to be a 'proxy' between me and the printshop, but his advices were scant and confusing, so that's why I have to ask people on forums.

     

    His "advices" were limited to: "Pick any CMYK profile, it doesn't matter", "The printed result will not be accurate anyway" and "If you bother me with such questions, I might end the cooperation with you". Although I understood that I cannot expect a 100% color accuracy from this particular printshop, I was not happy with his attitude and my position was that there must be some logic in everything we do, we should not just click things randomly.

     

    If this was a court, based on my testimony and the evidence you kindly provided, would you say that this guy was wrong?

     

    Thanks

    rob day
    Community Expert
    rob dayCommunity ExpertCorrect answer
    Community Expert
    October 1, 2021

    Also, Preserve Numbers can be useful if you need to send the same job to two different presses with very different profiles—i.e. Coated GRACoL and US Newsprint (SNAP). In that case you might build most of your source InDesign colors as RGB, but need to protect certain CMYK colors like black or 1-color grays.

     

    See this thread:

    https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/convert-mag-advert-profile-from-fogra39-working-to-isocoated-v2-eci-icc-via-pdf/td-p/12392821

     

     

     

      rob day
      Community Expert
      rob dayCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      October 1, 2021

      I prefer an RGB workflow and I plan to:


      a) Export the final product to CMYK (e.g. FOGRA39) or

       

      b) Export with no color change, with ICC profiles included and then I will convert to CMYK in Acrobat.

      Some of the images have ICC profiles, some don't. I assume it's good to preserve them, they are there for a reason.

       

      There would be no need to make the CMYK conversions in Acrobat, all of the Adobe print apps use the same color management system, so a conversion from an RGB source to FOGRA39 at Export would produce the same CMYK output numbers as Exporting with No Color Conversion and making the conversion to FOGRA39 in Acrobat.

       

      If you want an accurate color managed conversion from RGB to CMYK, the source RGB object has to have an embedded profile. If you place an RGB image with no embedded profile, it will get the InDesign document’s RGB profile assigned (its original color appearance might change). If the ID document has no RGB profile assignment,  the unprofiled image will get the current Color Settings RGB Working Space assigned, which could be anything—so...

       

      My RGB workspace is sRGB (in Edit>Color Settings). I set Assign profiles to Discard (Use the current workspace). Is this OK?

       

      No. Your Color Settings’ RGB CM Policy should be set to Preserve Profiles so that when you make a new document the RGB Working Space will get assigned to the document. If you discard the document’s RGB profile, document RGB colors or unprofiled RGB images would randomly change in appearance depending on what the current Color Settings RGB space happens to be set to.

       

      Whenever I choose CMYK: FOGRA39 in Edit>Color Settings and I try to export a PDF, I get that message: "The preset specifies source profiles that don't match the current colour settings file". If I choose US Swop in Edit>Color Settings, this doesn't happen. Why?  

       

      You can ignore the warning. It happens when the document profile assignments are something other than the default sRGB and US Web Coated SWOP—obviously there are many cases where the document profiles should not be those defaults.

       

      Should I choose at export: include all the profiles, tagged source profiles or all RGB and tagged CMYK profiles?

       

      For press work export using one of the PDF/X presets. PDF/X-4 keeps transparency live—if you want to export an all CMYK PDF/X-4, set the Output Destination to the correct press CMYK profile, which should also be your document’s assigned CMYK profile.

       

      Preserve numbers: yes or no?

       

      If you set the Output>Destination to Document CMYK, Convert to Destination and Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers) will produce the same result.

       

      As far as I understand, playing with the Edit>Color Settings only affects the way Indesign displays the colors on the screen and this is not something destructive?

       

      Color Settings are your color management preferences for future documents. Color Settings don’t normally have any affect on existing documents because existing documents should be saved with the necessary color management profiles and policies. The exception would be if you set the Policies to Off, or strip a document’s profiles—in those cases color management falls back to the Color Settings, which again could be anything.

       

       

       

        T
        Test Screen Name
        Legend
        October 1, 2021

        3) Preserve numbers: almost never. There are two situations when you might do this 

        (a) when you KNOW FOR SURE that the profile that is assigned is wrong (making the colours view wrong). This changes the profile, and using your specialist knowledge, you expect the colours to snap back.

        (b) you have special effects in the CMYK (such as overprint effects or registration grids) that are MORE IMPORTANT than accurate colour.

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