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Discussion: InDesign problems and innovations...

Adobe Employee ,
May 02, 2019 May 02, 2019

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Hi community members,

As users of InDesign and other lay-outing tools, I want to ask you some questions:

  • What is new in the world of document layouting? Something innovative? For example: Gridifying based on page dimensions
  • What problems are faced in the domain of typography that you think must be solved? For example: #Fontphoria: Adobe MAX 2018 (Sneak Peek) | Adobe Creative Cloud - YouTube
  • Any smart solutions or workflows you want in the product that can ease work? For example: replacing all missing glyphs in a document in one click
  • Anything out of the box workflows? For example: Automatically applying fonts to a document based on context...
  • Anything which you feel sounds cool and amazing and is useful?
  • Something which other tools do but not InDesign? For example: Messages in iOS 10: How to Use Emoji Replacement and Prediction - MacRumors

Above are just pointers i can think of right now. Would love to hear more such ideas, hurdles and other opinions... I also found one such innovative idea here: Dynamic baseline related unit of measurement – Adobe InDesign Feedback

FYI: The idea is not define the InDesign roadmap or mention bugs. We have a seperate page for that: Adobe InDesign Feedback .

The sole purpose of asking this here, is to gain understanding and knowledge regarding what concerns are facing our customers and  knowing the innovations they want in the product. (something like InDesign CC 2019 new feature - Content-Aware Fit - YouTube )

Please feel free to express your idea even if it is totally weird at its core

Thanks,

Aman

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Community Beginner ,
May 07, 2019 May 07, 2019

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In my opinion we should have the same shortcuts for Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator. Still a lot of new stuff works different also in Photoshop, InDesign, Illu. They should be more similar. For example proportional scaling, paths, and a lot of keyboard shortcuts. It seams like this teams don't talk together.

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Explorer ,
May 07, 2019 May 07, 2019

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Microsoft Office (Word, Excel, etc.) runs in the browser. InDesign should too!

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Explorer ,
May 07, 2019 May 07, 2019

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We can create Office documents (Word, Excel, etc.) without ever touching the exe (COM etc.).

We just can use the SDK for the document specification. And it is easy as well...

We should be able to do this with InDesign, as well it should be easy (I mean not C++ ;-))

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Contributor ,
May 12, 2019 May 12, 2019

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Hello together,

maybe it's not realistic at this point, but what if InDesign works more like xhtml/xml + css?

indd is then an xml or xhtml file (package), maybe web-based (Flat-File-CMS, like Kirby for content) but with UI for design (Texture from substance with UI like XD) – following the concept of separating content and design.

A summary, if you want, of these three approaches. Texters can change the text content, designers can change the design in parallel.

If an error has occurred in the file, you can look in and fix it and edit xml file directly with extensions.

+ relative sizes (as already mentioned): em, rem, %

+ e.g. calculate the text frame width with calc(100% - 3rem)

+ Dependencies of styles with selectors for paragraph and character styles, e.g. h1 + h2 if h2 follows h1 directly, h1 > p, :nth-child(n), [attribute=value], ...

Just for brainstorming ...

Roland

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New Here ,
Jun 29, 2019 Jun 29, 2019

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Apologies, as I know I'm late to the conversation.

I would suggest allowing multiple styles to apply to the same paragraph or characters, as to make them more like css classes, and let us avoid the style-overload of having bold, italic, and a separate bold-italic.

Exporting to html and ePub could use some love. In addition to the extra classes mentioned above, InDesign seems to add a lot of... cruft to the output. No matter how carefully I map and rename the export tags or clear all of the overrides, I find myself having to write a good deal of regexes post-export to get rid of all the _idParaOverrides, the dozens of nearly-identical uniquely-named classes, and the rather verbose, duplicate, and/or otherwise-unnecessary styles and tags added in the export process.

Maybe InCopy's already dead, but as we do a good deal of writing and editing, something like an updated InCopy could be rather useful—especially when deadlines are tight and the design and writing/rewriting/editing process is intermingled with the design process. Right now they use Microsoft Word (blech!) but it seems to work well enough with track changes and the ilk, but not ideal. Then again, it'd probably have to be free, as I'm not sure I could convince my boss of the necessity of a number of additional creative suite seats.

Thanks

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Community Expert ,
Jun 29, 2019 Jun 29, 2019

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InCopy is most definitely not dead and at only $5/month per seat can fit into any creative team's budget.

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Explorer ,
Jul 01, 2019 Jul 01, 2019

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Import of various mark-up languages, esp. Markdown. Have a look at what Leanpub is doing. And, fix the import of HTML. Mark-up first, with import to ID, etc. for output to PDF and print; and transformation to HTML + CSS is the future of publishing. 

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Explorer ,
Jul 15, 2019 Jul 15, 2019

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I've been trying to revive the idea of an actions panel in InDesign, my team desperately needs this feature.

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Explorer ,
Jul 15, 2019 Jul 15, 2019

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Mathematics. It would be good to be able to type LaTeX and have it render automatically.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 15, 2019 Jul 15, 2019

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I, and I’m sure many other users, would like Adobe to implement the use of the features now available in the PDF2.00 specification, so that we can include video, audio and controllable reflowable text in an Interactive PDF.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Hi Derek,

good point, but I think that this would mean that InDesign must be changed a lot.

In core functionality. My guess is that will take a couple of years ( if ever ).

E.g. Color management must be provided optional per page and not per document, only.

And that will also mean that there must be a simulation of transparency blending per page as option and not per spread.

Regards,
Uwe

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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I don't know what would be involved, but I do know its would be huge for digital publishers.

Lend your (important) weight to the cause by emailing Adobe with a request for the facility to be implemented.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 17, 2019 Jul 17, 2019

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I totally agree

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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amaarora  wrote

Hi community members,

As users of InDesign and other lay-outing tools, I want to ask you some questions:

  • What is new in the world of document layouting? Something innovative? For example: Gridifying based on page dimensions
    • Nothing new it's been the same for the last 30 years!
  • What problems are faced in the domain of typography that you think must be solved? For example: #Fontphoria: Adobe MAX 2018 (Sneak Peek) | Adobe Creative Cloud - YouTube
    • Endnotes, still not fully supported.
    • Footnotes, no updates in functionallity in a while
    • Numbering lists in complex numbering documents is far too complex in InDesign
    • Long document features have not been updated in about 20 years (InDesign Book)
  • Any smart solutions or workflows you want in the product that can ease work? For example: replacing all missing glyphs in a document in one click
    • Master pages to have a Master Colours!
      • For example, if you were to setup a Master Page and assign Pantone 123 to the content, then in a Paragraph Style, you would assign master colour (123) - if the content moves to new master page with a different master colour, all elements on that page automatically change to all colours matching the master page (meaning changing a colour in the Master Page would change all colours)
        • This would translate down all features relating to master pages, Fonts, sizes, colours, gradients etc.
  • Anything out of the box workflows? For example: Automatically applying fonts to a document based on context...
    • Auto apply a style to things that are bullets/lists/body/headings etc.
      • These could be generated by InDesign on import of text from Word - based on the content.
        • URLs are another bug bear.
  • Anything which you feel sounds cool and amazing and is useful?
    • Preview InDesign Book - which would give you a full preview page by page of the entire book file from InDesign without exporting to PDF.
  • Something which other tools do but not InDesign? For example: Messages in iOS 10: How to Use Emoji Replacement and Prediction - MacRumors
    • Check out all of Affinity's software - it's doing things that were asked of Adobe 20 years ago!
      • For example, the ability to edit a vector file Insitu - and edit raster images insitu - full controls - not watered down
      • Affinity Publisher can just open a PDF and make edits right there and then!
        • Incredible, given that Adobe is the author of the PDF and converting a PDF to InDesign requires a third party plugin at the moment.

My replies are in bold.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Text Variables that don't squish up when not enough room, i.e., that they line break when needed.

There are a lot of features, and I can't recall them all, added to InDesign many years ago and they have never been made better.

Text Variables are brilliant, but a bit more work and they would be amazing.

In relation to other things - like SWF Previews and the like - these could be removed, and flash export, nobody is using it anymore.

There are also lots of functions added to InDesign over the years that are no longer viable - and should be removed.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Right. Interactive tools haven’t been touched since CS5. It’s insane.

  • Still can’t add to all states of an MSO.

  • Still can’t copy/paste a button with a go to state action without losing that action.

  • Still no way to auto run an MSO outside of in5

  • Animations are way too hard to control. We need a real timeline.

  • Back to MSOs…slide transitions.

  • The answer may well be to tear it down and start again. I would fully support that to get tools that actually work.

I’m not trying to turn InDesign into Animate but these are core tools for interactive documents and they suck.

And fix the damn UI. It’s a hot mess on Windows. Scaling doesn’t even come close to Illustrator or Photoshop which both work well.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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The File>New Document box is terrible.

It's far to focused on the use of templates, and pushing Adobe stock templates.

When I hit a new document and select print - it should automatically bring me to a preset list of A sizes paper, from A7 all the way to A0.

With an option for B sizes - although B presses are limited where I am, so maybe a list.

Plus maybe it should be A,RA, SRA sizes - for print professionals - this is who this programme is designed for right?

That's why I don't understand the push towards templates with a new dialog box - it doesn't make sense and is a push towards amatures - preselecting templates and they haven't thought about how it's finished, before they begin!

But I digress - the New Document dialog box - the BLEED setting is hidden! WHY? When I select a PRINT document???

You should be able to preference this - most of the time I have this set to 3mm - so why not all my new documents can I not select Print and auto add in 3mm bleed?

Not everything requires 3mm bleed but in 99% of what I'm doing it is the right call.

There's so much needs to be done with InDesign - I think BobLevine​ is right!

Build it from the Ground Up! Rebuild it - make it better!

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Oh this is what I came to say!

Pages!

Let us setup a trifold document in the New Document dialog box.

At the moment you have to select 6 pages - then fiddle around in the Pages panel to get a tri-fold.

I'd like to set the left panel on the first set to be 2mm shorter, and the last panel on the right to be 2mm shorter for a neat finish.

Without having to jump through hoops.

A few selections required -

Trifold/Gatefold 

Pages 6/8//10/12 etc.

Roll/Concertina etc.

Then make the document accurately.

But I digress again.

What I am doing now is signage - and I like to have all signs in one file.

I have all my sizes - why do I need to manually add them all in?

I wish there was an option to put in that I am doing a multipage job with different pages sizes:

Page 1: 18x48in

Page 2: 24 x 36 in

Page 3: 36x18 in

etc

Same margins, same bleed.

3 master pages - 2 master pages based off the first one.

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Participant ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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What problems are faced in the domain of typography that you think must be solved? For example: #Fontphoria: Adobe MAX 2018 (Sneak Peek) | Adobe Creative Cloud - YouTube

1) [footnote WITH XML support]

2) [footnote with Separate stories]

3) [Keep options application crash]

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Advocate ,
Jul 17, 2019 Jul 17, 2019

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Agree with priyak7746321,

Looking for these points:

  1. footnote WITH XML support
  2. Endnotes with XML support
  3. Group styles(paragraph style and characters) with XML support
  4. conditions with XML support

At least text related all those things with XML support.

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Hi Aman:

Also late to the game but I'd like:

  1. the ability to link the application of a master page to a paragraph style (i.e., opening page master to chapter style title).
  2. sidehead columns and paragraphs (to designate a subhead to sit the the left of the paragraph it modifies)
  3. option to put para numbers at the left or right of the paragraph they modify (equations are numbered on the right)
  4. more options for paragraph numbering—specifically the ability to add a tab character at the beginning or middle of the number string.
  5. variables that can break across lines and variables in a pod for quicker updating.

~Barb

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Long documents features that work without plug-ins and scripts would be awesome beyond imagination!

Footnotes

Endnotes (including at the end of the book)

Indexing (with Italics)

Selecting all of the same style

Moving to another style to make edits from within the Paragraph Styles panel (Drop down menu)

Text variables that don’t jam up

A selection of several H&Js to choose from that are better than the default. Talk to Nigel or Brad or anyone.

Turn off greeking as the default. Leave the checkbox in case someone wants it. QuarkXPress did this in QXP 7.

Charts and graphs (unless Illustrator gets them)

No bugs? Some of these “bugs” have been here since the beginning. Fixing them would be the coolest thing you could do!

~ Jane

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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Reading through all the posts - most of the ACPs here want functionality for exisiting items to be updated and work better than when first introduced. They were introduced, then no further updates to how they work since being integrated.

A lot of features fell behind when InDesign programmers were scurrying to the "interactive" market, flash, ePubs, etc. and the main functionality of the program hasn't been updated in years!

We want InDesign back for what it was designed for! We want it better. We want features improved upon, year on year - not just once!

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Community Expert ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Eugene+Tyson  wrote

most of the ACPs here want functionality for exisiting items to be updated and work better than when first introduced. ... We want InDesign back for what it was designed for!

Exactly!

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New Here ,
Jul 16, 2019 Jul 16, 2019

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[Some stream of consciousness for your consideration]

Folks, let's admit that InDesign is a "legacy" product, and has clearly been put out to pasture.

When the last original developer in Seattle (Doug Waterfall) was let go, after the development team was outsourced to India, that was pretty much the death knell for InDesign over the long run.

I'm not knocking the Indian team--they're a lot of great, highly talented people who are passionate about what they're doing.

But without the original set of people who architected and implemented the core feature set, the product (which is millions of lines of code) will inevitably stray from the original principles and clean design that enabled it to exist and cohere in the first place. Heck, perhaps even if the Seattle team had stayed intact this would have happened, since people do die or retire, and the product is almost 30 years old now (it started internally long before its first release). Even just the act of adding features/fixing bugs will inevitably generate more problems that need to be dealt with--the subtle interactions among the hundreds of code modules are exponentially hard and growing each each change.

Gathering from what we know from Adobe folk about monthly active users, InDesign generates on the order of $1B annually. So there's really not any question of killing the product (too damned lucrative) or of any lack of resources. But, cynically speaking, InDesign is a cash cow put out to pasture (wait, aren't all cows put out to pasture?), where Adobe only has to add/fix a few major things each year to keep people from wondering too much about what their subscription is really buying them.

The real problem is just the massive inertia inherent in the size of the product itself--each feature (of which there are hundreds, at least, even counting only major features/aspects of the product) could be improved/extended/fixed.

If you ask 100 InDesign experts to give you their top 10 feature improvements/extensions/fixes, you'd get probably 600 quite different answers among them. What can you do with that? How do you prioritize? Yes, you can ask here in the forum and get your 600 answers, but then you've gotta pick 5-10 for the next major release. At that rate, it'll take decades to get to them all. And, meanwhile, your code quality is all the time declining inevitably from all the piecemeal changes made by people who can't be experts in the whole architecture, since they have to reverse engineer the intent of the original authors, even if they were as talented as the latter. (Which is unlikely, given the stratospheric engineering talent in the original team.)

So all this brainstorming might be cathartic, but in the end realize that it's a losing proposition.

What's the answer? Start from scratch with a whole new product design that's more oriented to the web era where print communication is secondary, and is derived from the web? Perhaps, but then you're looking at a hundreds-of-man-years project which of course you can't accomplish with a team bigger than a couple dozen talented people (see classic Fred Brooks' "The Mythical Man-Month"), so it'll take decades again.

And it won't likely come from Adobe, unless they pull an "XD for print" and start afresh. And that's unlikely given the print market's long-term decline. Perhaps if Chuck and John were still around there might be the top-level impetus to take Adobe's massive resources and invest in a print-technology renaissance as a kind of paean to the enduring virtues of print we all know and love. Dream on, but even then the new mythical product wouldn't be compatible with InDesign, nor should it be. Gotta start fresh sometime, though perhaps (since it's mythical it's easy to fantasize) the new product could bring over as much InDesign content/layout as possible.

While print won't die, it's certainly in a long-term decline with obviously a non-zero but flat tail forever. So maybe InDesign development should just follow that same tail down. And, realistically, that's exactly where we are today.

Yes, that's defeatist, and I suppose in the face of long-term defeat the only thing to do (if you must produce artifacts to print) is to man up, re-shuffle the burden on your back, beg for the features that would improve your day-to-day life, and carry on.

Signed,

[A long-term third party developer who needs to remain anonymous for obvious reasons]

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