How to Add Space Before Headings at the Start of a New Page in InDesign

[shahidr100]

Hi,

I have couple of headings starting from the new page.

I have created a "Heading" style and given before space of 32 points and after space of 16 points. Heading point size is 20 points and leading is 16 points. Both Heading and text are aligned to custom baseline using object style. I have also used inset values in object style.

Now the issue is when the heading is between the text, it works fine but the moment it starts in a new page, "Before space" does not work. I know that "Before space" will not work here BUT I need a 32 point space before Heading One and Heading Three. How do I achieve that without using a new Parent Page.

I have made an alternative heading method also with Rule Above ON and keeping it in frame with offset but that does not work here.

Any suggestions? I have attached screenshot and idml file.

Thanks

<Title renamed by MOD>

[Abhishek Rao]

Hi @shahidr100,

Thanks for sharing the detailed information and the screenshot! I understand how frustrating it can be when the "Before space" doesn't apply to headings at the start of a new page.

Could you let me know which version of InDesign you're using? 

To achieve the spacing you need without using a new Parent Page, can you please try the below?
Go to Type > Story and enable "Optical Margin Alignment". By this you can often resolve the issue of inconsistent spacing at the top of a new page.

Alternatively, you can adjust the 'First Baseline Offset' in the text frame options and increase the top inset to mimic the space before.

Let me know how this works for you! Leaving the discussion open for more insights by our esteemed community experts. 

Best,  
Abhishek

[shahidr100]

@Abhishek Rao Thanks for the reply. "Optical Margin Alignment" did not work.  'First Baseline Offset' method may work but then again if you see the screenshot, I have headings in between the text as well. If I change 'First Baseline Offset', it will change all the headings, in fact it will hamper body text as well.

Paragraph Rule version is not working here. Ideally it should work but it is not working, reason being that the textframe is in Fixed baseline setting as required by my client.  

Any other suggestions / ideas ?

Thanks

[shahidr100]

@Abhishek Rao v19.5

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

InDesign is aggressive about suppressing space above a paragraph at page tops, and there is no simple way to force it to retain the space. The one and only reliable workaround is to use a Rule Above —

• For the paragraph you want to have page-top spacing, go to the Paragraph Style menu, Paragraph Rules pane.
• Check to enable Rule Above.
• Set the rule width to zero, and the color to None.
• Check "Keep in Frame." (Very important, none of this will work without this setting!)
• Set the Offset to the amount of space-above you want.

A kind of wonky method, but it's the only way to retain space above at page tops.

This should work regardless of baseline settings, although the spacing will snap to the nearest baseline unless you disable that snap in the paragraph style. If you're having trouble, I'd bet you didn't check Keep in Frame. It's a somewhat cryptic name and easy to to overlook.

[shahidr100]

@James That method is not working. I tried that already. In the idml file
attached, i hv created alternative heading using that para rule above
method.

What am i missing?
Thanks

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

The good news is: it's not you. The maybe-bad news is: I've never seen this behavior before.

You're on the right track: it has to do with the First Baseline mode. Set it to Fixed, and the rule-above spacing no longer works. It works fine with every other setting of that element.

I have no idea why this is happening, but then, I can't remember ever using a Fixed value for the first baseline. If you can choose any of the others, you can keep all your other text frame settings and have the heading space down as desired.

Note that setting a style to align to baseline seems to completely override both the First Baseline type and value settings — so they are doing nothing in your layout except that choosing Fixed is interfering with the spacing hack.

I am not at all sure how these settings interact, even after reading Adobe's help page and a Creative Pro essay. It looks as if they are several options to get a similar final result, and can interact poorly.

So if simply not using Fixed doesn't solve your overall layout problem, say so and I and perhaps better minds here can sort it out. An explanation of why you are using Fixed (if it's deliberate) would help.

[FRIdNGE]

OK about Para Rule Above but bad text frame settings (choose another one!)! …

(^/)  The Jedi

[rob day · Accepted solution]

Hi @shahidr100 , Your text frames’ Use Custom Baseline Grid setting is interfering with the Rule Above technique. You could simplify the document by using Primary Text Frames on the Parent Spread with the fill and stroke applied to the Primary Frames rather than creating extra frames for the borders. See attached.

I’m using a document Baseline Grid set up in Preferences like this:

On the Parent Spread there are Primary Text Frames with their Text Frame Options  setup like this:

Now Rule Above for your Header style works and everything is aligning to the grid:

[FRIdNGE]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your test-doc. but it doesn't work! …. 😉

(^/)

[FRIdNGE]

I didn't see your 3rd screenshot related to my first message!!! So ignore my previous message.

(^/)

[rob day]

Yes, it does appear that the Fixed first baseline is the problem with the Rule Above spacer. I think Leading is the better First Baseline Offset because it puts the first baseline on the baseline grid where you want it—works whether you have Align to baseline grid turned on or off. Here all of the text has Align to basline grid turned off, but the text remains aligned and I get the desired space above with the Heading style:

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Once you have a first paragraph snapping to the baseline, only the baseline settings (global or custom) seem to matter. I couldn't find any setting in the First Line field that changed how a baseline-enabled paragraph behaved, other than that Fixed/Rule-Above quirk.

Another example, I think, of two differentiated settings combined into one menu and giving the impression they work together, when at best they sort of work in the same area, under different conditions.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Rob, I experimented for a while with this and found that EVERYTHING comes down to that custom baseline grid setting of First Line: [Fixed]. Even though this first line setting seems to be overridden by baseline settings, if this option is set a rule-above spacing trick simply won't work. (I am discovering some previously unknown depths about how all the general and custom baseline settings interact, especially this one, which seems to be an other/outliner.)

But unless I've missed something, it's simple:

• If Text Frame Options | Baseline Options | First Baseline is set to [Fixed], the rule-above spacing method simply does not work.
• If that field is set to any other option, rule-above spacing works as expected.
• This is true even though that first-line setting seems to be effective ONLY if the first paragraph (at least) is NOT set to snap to baseline grid. Once either the general doc baseline grid or a text frame custom grid is in play, the First Baseline setting seems to be ignored... but still interferes with the rule-above spacing method.

Translation: you can muck around all over with settings for spacing, baseline, rules etc. and get some variations, but that one setting, even if nulled out, is an on-off switch for rule-above spacing.

I haven't the faintest idea of the overall "why" here. 🙂

[rob day]

a rule-above spacing trick simply won't work.

I never use the Fixed Offset, but it does make sense that it would not work with a Rule Above spacer. Fixed Offset with Min set to 0 puts the baseline aligned with top of the text frame:

If I add a Rule Above with no Offset the rule aligns with the baseline, so it starts outside of the text frame, and Keep In Frame has no affect:

A Leading Offset gets you where you want to be with or without Align to baseline grid turned on:

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Yes, you can do all kinds of fun things with that first-line setting and I've filed away some of the subltle behavors for unique layout and problem solving purposes. Fixed might have a use more in art layout (an ad, a text pull, etc.) than in text-page layout. But it definitely chokes the rule-above spacing, and I am not sure whether this is a combination of intended/desired behavors or a bug.

Easily remedied, though, once known.

[rob day]

Fixed might have a use more in art layout

It also might be useful if you disagree with the type designer’s placement of the ascent line—see this:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/understanding-indesign-s-first-baseline-offset-i...

With Fixed you can customize the Offset using Min. This font sets the ascent line above the diacritic mark, but I might want it on the lowercase ascender, which I can do with Fixed plus a Min amount:

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

But you can adjust the offset of all the settings, not just Fixed. 🙂

I can see all the reasons for the various base settings, but in most cases the flexibility/auto-adjust of the others  — unless you assume a fixed body font, in which case it's one-and-done — plus that tweak factor would be more useful than just a fixed setting.

Options are good. It's only when Option A blocks Option B that it's... annoying.

[rob day]

But you can adjust the offset of all the settings, not just Fixed. 🙂

The difference with Fixed is any amount moves the first baseline, so I don’t think you would be able to replicate what I’m showing above (aligning on the lowercase ascender rather than the diacritic) using the other options:

In this case using Ascent, 0-7 Min has no affect. More than 7 clears the acsent and pushes the line down, but I need it to move up in order to align on the LC ascender

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Yes, the type-related ones do have a hidden offset, which I suppose varies with the relevant basis (x-height, cap height, etc.) Fixed does have the advantage of being absolute.

[shahidr100]

@rob day Thanks a ton. I will give it a try.

Regards

[TᴀW]

The simplest, and in my experience, best, way to enfore space before for headings, even at the top of pages, and even if the first baseline is set to fixed (as of course your client very rightly insists it should be) is very simple. It has one small disadvantage (selecting the text in the heading is slightly tricky, with the emphasis on slightly).

Simply put all the space in the "space after" option, and then push the text down into the gap created with baseline shift.

It's a simple as that.

No messing around with paragraph rules that depend on the text frame settings (can't be "fixed"), no messing around with new master pages.

Try it! It's worked for the 200+ books I've typeset.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

If it works for you, that's great  — but the single enormous advantage of using the Rule Above method is that it reflows without having to adjust individual text frames or assign different Parent pages. Unless I'm missing something, changing that first baseline is no different from, say, simply dragging the text frame down two inches for a heading page — and that doesn't reflow.

The Rule-Above method has worked flawlessly for me for many, many years; this weird glitch if the text frame is set to First Line [Fixed] is the first fault I've ever seen... and I can't see any good reason to use that Fixed setting for general page layout, which is the only place space-above would really matter.

[TᴀW]

the single enormous advantage of using the Rule Above method is that it reflows without having to adjust individual text frames or assign different Parent pages. Unless I'm missing something, changing that first baseline is no different from, say, simply dragging the text frame down two inches for a heading page

No, no, I wasn't talking about adjusting the first baseline of the text frame.

I was talking about applying baseline shift, which is something that can be defined as part of the Heading paragraph style.

and I can't see any good reason to use that Fixed setting for general page layout, which is the only place space-above would really matter.

Ah, well there's a very good reason to only use the "fixed" setting – if you care about text aligning to the baseline grid.

If you choose any other setting for the first baseline of a text frame, then if, for some reason, the first line of text in a frame contains a big letter (maybe the first line is a subheading @12pt compared to body text at 11pt) all subsequent lines of text are pushed down and will no longer sit on the baseline.

(Actually, it's more subtle than that. Depending on the font, the x-height or ascent height may be defined differently for the roman and italic weight. This can sometimes be a very small difference. But, again if you're careful to work with a baseline grid, and the bottom of the text frame is exactly flush with the last baseline of the text area, this tiny difference can be enough to push the last line of text out of the frame – if you have x-height or ascent set for the first baseline. I remember it took me a long time to figure out why the last line of text had disappeared once. And the answer was that: the first line contained italics, and the tiny difference in x-height for that font pushed the last line off the page. That was the last time I used any other setting than "fixed" for the first baseline!)

If, on the other hand, the "fixed" setting is used, the size of letters in the first line of text makes no difference.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

I wasn't talking about adjusting the first baseline of the text frame. I was talking about applying baseline shift...

Ah! "Too many baselines, my dear Mozart." I get it now, and that's a slick approach. I seem to recall trying it and finding that baseline shift was limited in its range  — perhaps 60 points? — which made it of limited use for this result. But I see shift goes... way high these days (or I'm thinking of some other setting whose limit causes a similiar gotcha) — so all good. I will put that trick back in the list.

Something else is nagging at me about a fault with this approach, but I can't put a finger on it. I will be experimenting. (A peculiarity for me is that I have to see how it maps to EPUB export, with and without CSS restyling.)

Ah, well there's a very good reason to only use the "fixed" setting

And there's the connection between First Baseline and Baseline Grid I was overlooking. Got this now, too, but I still think this is an avoidable problem for the Rule-Above spacing method, and if nothing else I know that space-down method has no hidden gotchas.

Thanks for the clarification x2!

ETA: And yes, the export of the baseline-shift model to EPUB is a bit wonky, but nothing un-fixable at the CSS level. The only reason I can think of as to why I discarded this method was that baseline shift was previously limited — and I am not sure of that. I know some key setting in this realm has a surprisingly small limit that screws up a good process.