Illustrations are too pale in the first proof of a book I am printing with a POD company

[Janel_Twogood5154]

I am designing a book for Print on Demand at Ingramspark. The first hardcover proof with its premium paper arrived and all the images are too light. The paperback proof copy also arrived with light images - as well as light text. The resolution was fine.
There are about 150 images What is the best way for me to maintain or increase the highest color saturation of each image while meeting the printer’s 240%TAC limit?
Is there something to know about the type blackness? I have set the color for all text to be 100%K in InDesign.
All images are Photoshop TIFFS already converted to CMYK at 300dpi.
I am using InDesign to create the book.

This is a book intended for young audiences. All the illustrations are by children and do run pretty "light" in color, but I am seeing total loss of certain areas of illustrations made in pencil, for example. 

Appreciate any advice. I am in touch with Ingramspark, but getting no real actionable advice, other than to refer to their file set up guide.  Have done.

[Willi Adelberger]

PDF/X-3 cause many problems (stitching lines, color profile conflicts, etc.) if you place them into InDesign, even if the end result must be another X-3. 

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Who said anything about placing PDF/X-3? We are discussing export. 

[Janel_Twogood5154]

Yes, this is my basic concern.  How best to retain any image edits I do in Photoshop when I go to export the InDesign file to either PDF/X-1 or PDF/X-3.  IngramSpark will accept either. 

[Willi Adelberger]

If you place PDFs into InDesign, use PDF/X-4, leave the images in RGB. Convert them to final PDF standard with the final PDF export from InDesign.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

The company only accepts PDF/X-1a and 3. 4 was not an option. 
Again, I don't recall  discussing placing PDFs. 

[Janel_Twogood5154]

I am providing CMYK images.  There seem to be a lot of "moments" where conversions are happening. I used the basic Photoshop: Image/Mode/CMYK to change RGB into CMYK.  I know- big mistake.....I won't make it again.  I will keep everything in RGB from now on until the last moment.  But now I'm kind of stuck b/c I have a number of illustrations with time-consuming edits completed in those CMYK/Tiff versions. I still think I need to go in and increase saturation on some of the files. But I am as sea with the colors space vs. color profile, vs. what the PDF/X-1 and PDF/X-3 conversions do to the color....I have the standard that Ingramspark requires clear in my mind.  But how to maintain the highest image quality, while hitting their 240% TAC remains unclear to me.....I mean, even if I understand how to create Custom CMYK profiles in PS with 240% Ink coverage limits, or assign the Ink Coverage limit at the PDF export step, I am still confused, or at least concerned that I will do image editing work that just gets lost in translation. 

[Peter Spier]

You mentioned you converted the images to CMYK using SWOP for the profile, but WHICH SWOP?

Using the coated perofile could easily result in some fading on uncoated paper (and cheap uncoated paper is going to give less than stellar color no matter what because the ink soaks in instead of sitting on the surface, which is why they want such a low ink coverage).

[Janel_Twogood5154]

Hello.  Thank you for your reply.  I set the CMYK profile to U.S. Web Coated (SWOP)v.2.  This is the recommendation from Ingramspark, at least for its premium color hardcover, which uses coated paper.  I will double check the settings requirement for the Paperback version again, thank you.  

If anyone has advice about what the color settings should be for Photoshop and InDesign on this type of project, I would greatly appreicate the input. I'm attaching screenshots of the Color Settings as they are currently set. 

[Peter Spier]

In my opinion, and others may disagree, your color settings should be set to the correct output profiles (and I'm fairly sure SWOP Coated is not correct in this case), and that color management settings should be set to Preserve Embedded Profiles, though Convert to Working Space is probably also acceptable. Off is a poor choice.

All of that said, if you've already convereted from RGB to CMYK you will never get your original vibrant RGB colors back -- all CMYK spaces have a smaller gamut than RGB and are all device-dependent, which is to say they do the best job they can of converting your colors to the specific device they are designed for, but going from one CMYK profile to another cannot restore information already lost.

In any case, in Photoshop set your Photoshop View > Proof Setup to the output profile that matches your print conditions and use View > Proof Colors to see what you can expect in print, and this will be far more accurate if you use a calibrated monitor. If your monitor is not calibrated there's actually a good possibility that it's been showing you brighter colors than actually exist from the very start.

[Janel_Twogood5154]

Thank you for your comments. Very helpful.  

If I don't use the SWOP Profile, but use CMYK (as Ingramspark appears to require), should I set the profile to Custom CMYK and set the Ink Coverage to 240%? Or just use the Working CMYK profile?

(Full disclosure and confusingly- I have triedthe CUstom CMYK setting and when I preview the ink coverage %'s in PS and InDesign,  I still have areas that are exceeding that set limit.)

Also- I might mention that I am using levels and saturation adjustments to try and pump up the coverage.  

I haven't calibrated my screen, but I can see that many of the images that originally went to print were too "bright", as a result of my attempts to remove the background color.  

If I had a do-over, I would:

Scan using my Epson V60 at the highest PPI with no other adjustments. 

Maintain and do all edits in RGB

Link all images InDesign in RGB and export to PDF/X3. If Ingramspark were to reject because the files were RGB, I wold Convert to CMYK using color settings in PS. 

But- if the Ink Coverage in the files were to exceed 240%, I still worry that Ingramspark's "processing" would cause loss?  

Am I in the right ballpark of correct steps?  Have I learned anything?  hahah!

As I have gone through each image and individially edited to try and optimize saturation, blackness, and lower the Ink coverage- with a mix of original RGB's and "oops- too late I already made time consuming edits in CMYK" files, I am now kind backed into a corner, where I just want to make sure I export with the optimal settings. 

Thank you for all your help!

[Peter Spier]

I've looked for information about color profiles on the INgram Spark site, amnd as far as I can tell they have none, which means you are completely in the dark on how to prepare the files.

Swop Coated is a reasonable guess for the premium stock as it's commoinly used, even for non-web press printing, but I would suggest that SWOP UNCoated would probably giove you a more accurate idea of what to expect with the less expensive paper, and I wouldn't get your hopes up about getting vibrant colors from either, but particularly with the uncoated paper.

I think there are some others here with more experience in POD publishing (I've have never used a POD provider), but my instinct is that these are laser printed, and may not be printed on the same equipment every time, so there may not be much consistency to the output from order to order.

Are you able to talk with anyone at Ingram Spark? The best advice I can give is call them, tell them the images in the proof are too light (and the text in the paperpack) and ask them what the problem is.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

This is what their guidelines say:

"SPOT COLORS/ICC PROFILES: Please do not include Spot colors or ICC profiles in your file as these can produce unexpected results during processing. ICC profiles applied to 100% black text often convert to a shade or percentage of gray (less than 100% black). This will result in text in your proof that is not solid black. If text is intended to appear as solid black, including Spot colors or ICC profiles can cause delays in receiving a correct proof."

[Peter Spier]

@Dave Creamer of IDEAS OK. I can see that they don't want to risk a profile conversion, but it sure would be nice if they told you what CMYK profile actually matches the print condition so your colors will be somewhat accurate.

This is definitely a droip it in the hopper and what comes out comes out operation.

[Janel_Twogood5154]

Thank you!  I bought a color calibibrator for my monitor. I am going to go through one more time and see if I can get the darks below the 240% ink limit without causing too much loss. 

I have a PDF from my client of a different children's book with full bleen illustrations on many pages. It looks decent even though is was printed with Ingramspark.  Interestingly, the images have several areas that read over the 240% limit Ingramspark claims to require.  

If I convert to a custom CMYK with an ink limit setting turned on to 240%, convert all files, and then convert again to standard working CMYK, would I lose data in process? 

[Peter Spier]

If I convert to a custom CMYK with an ink limit setting turned on to 240%, convert all files, and then convert again to standard working CMYK, would I lose data in process? 

By @Janel_Twogood5154

Probably not. The big color loss comes in conversion from RGB to the smaller -gamut CMYK profiles, and that color cannot be restored by re-converting to anything else.

But what would be the purpose in doing a second conversion? I like to think of CMYK profiles as being  like describing the regional pronunciation of the way words are spelled. Where I grew up in Ohio, for example, the nerby city of Versailles was pronounced VerSALES, while in Frnace it would be prounced VairSIGH -- same letters, different proununciation -- and there can be a similar issue with how words ar empahsized. Locals called my hometown Yellow SPRINGS, outsiders frequently called it YELLOW Springs. Sounded odd, but everyone knew what they meant.

CMYK color profiles describe the paper/ink combinations that produce a color appearance or any set of ink densities under standard lighting condtions using s specific printing device/method. If you change the device/method, the same combination of inks can look a little different, or potentially a lot different, just as changing the paper stock can have an effect. Since Ingram Spark does not use a color-managed workflow and doesn't offer you good profiles, you won't gain anything by a random profile change.