InDesign change CMYK Values

[Francesco Stefanini]

Hello guys

I've a problem with an exported file. InDesign have changed the cmyk values of an imported PDF

I recorded a video here to explain the various step that I made

https://www.loom.com/share/a4db5431aab149e28f1a9396af739457

As you can see in the final exported file the cmyk values of "warm grey" spot color has changed, so when I converted into CMYK the final print result it was different.

I also attached the files.

I don't understand why InDesign do that.... Any idea?

Best

[Eugene Tyson]

No idea what you're doing with Enfocus PitStop Pro?

Both PDFs here show the PDF with Spot Colours.

You seem to be opening files in Acrobat - editing with Pitstop Pro 

I see at some point you're opening a file and asking for the Colour Policy to be off - it can't be truly off - it has to use some colour profile. 

Why are you converting the Spot colour to CMYK? 

I don't get what you're trying to do. 

Both your PDFs show that the same colour separations - for me anyway. 

@rob day probably has more insight here. 

[Francesco Stefanini]

Hi Eugene

Thank you for your support. The fact is the spot color (Warm Gray in that case) change his inner value from CMYK (to the origin file) to LAB (the exported file through InDesign). 

This inner value create a different CMYK color values after conversion from spot to CMYK

Best

[Willi Adelberger]

The CMYK values of a spot color can differ depending on the output profile. Are you aware on that?

[Eugene Tyson]

But I don't see you converting it from indesign? 

I see you converting it with Enfocus PitStop. 

The values in both PDFs you supplied are identical and are both spot colours. 

The change is happening after your conversion through a 3rd party plugin, Enfocus. 

There's no change in the PDF - they're still spot colours. 

I really don't understand your workflow. 

If you need specific CMYK for the spot colour - then you can create the CMYK breakdown in InDesign and use the ink manager to Alias the ink to the CMYK breakdown. 

When you make the PDF use the Ink Manager to target this 

something like this

I've this for Pantone Orange 032 - as the CMYK and the Spot colour are nowhere near achievable 

So I had to create my own CMYK version of it. 

This works to convert your Spot Colour - Cool Grey - to the CMYK values you require. 

Without relying on additional plugins. 

Then you have the option when exporting to leave it as a Spot Colour - or Ink Alias to the CMYK variation you created.

This would ensure consistency as the same CMYK 

As @Willi Adelberger your Output Profile can change the CMYK values when converting from Spot Colour to CMYK. 

[Francesco Stefanini]

Hi Eugene,

In my prepress workflow I need to manage the color conversion on Pitstop, this is the reason because I converted there.

About that case if I import the original file "MTA 003556_270125.pdf" into InDesign I already see that the color sample has the LAB color space (see attachment) while if I open the same file in illustrator I see the color space in CMYK

[Eugene Tyson]

When you Place a file in InDesign you get the same values - this could be Adobes push to everything LAB which is might be what's causing a shift - again this would be due to some colour management policy - even if turned off it has to be managed by something, it can't truly be off. 

And when you open a PDF in Illustrator (which is a strict no from my side) it would use the CMYK profile assigned there. 

Either way - the colour is still a Spot Colour, in InDesign it's a spot colour. 

In Illustrator should still show as a Spot colour - however Illustrator may shift to LAB space (not sure if InDesign does). 

But you're seeing your shift in CMYK due to the Output Intent profile. 

So your Colour Management Policies in Illustrator and InDesign should match your destination profile (not turned off). 

Even still you might get the LAB conversion. 

Not sure wh you're opening or placing these in InDesign/Illustrator. 

Is there a need to use InDesign/Illustrator at all? 

What's the function here?

[rob day]

Hi @Francesco Stefanini , Could you clarify the final output? Is it really to an offset press running 5 plates CMYK + Pantone Warm Gray 1C?

Starting with CS6 Adobe defined the Pantone spot library colors as Lab, which is more accurate than CMYK for display. Many of the solid ink Pantone colors are outside of the CMYK gamut ( @Eugene Tyson points out the very out-of-gamut Pantone Orange)

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

Indeed, if they are going spot, it doesn't matter, but, yeah, I looked back at the pre-CS6 pre-LAB Pantone sets, and Pantone, Warm Grey 1 C was indeed defined as 0C 2M 3Y 6K. That being said, that was at a time when there was assumed a lot of gain by the time it got to press, so it makes sense the values are quite light.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse · Accepted solution]

I had a look at your original Illustrator file.

Pantone spot swatches, for many years now, are defined as LAB values.

In the original Illustrator file you sent (in your PDF), even though it is defined as a spot colour "Pantone warm Gray 1 C", someone has changed it from its LAB values to CMYK (0C 2M 3Y 6K). Whether this came from an old legacy file or was converted with inappropriate Color settings, I don't know. In any case, it's not a match for the current Pantone LAB swatch at all.

 

This creates a problem when you import it into another program that does use the current Pantone LAB swatches. So, when you bring the file into InDesign, it will map the Pantone to the same-named one in its own Library, which is LAB-based... with the values of approx. L84 a1 b4.

So, depending on your Color Settings, when you change these to CMYK at output, they will convert according to what ICC profiles you have in place. e.g. if you're using an old CMYK Profile like US Sheetfed Coated, you will probably get something along the line of 15C 13M 15Y 0K.

If you really want to match the SPECIFIC CMYK values of your original grey, I suggest you give it a new spot name in the Illustrator file (say, e.g. "Special Gray"), so when you bring it into InDesign, it will add that same colour into its Swatch Library.

[Francesco Stefanini]

Hi Brad

Got it! It makes sense. Maybe the person who made the file created a pantone instead of taking it from the official library (LAB) he has manually putting specific values ​​in CMYK. Then InDesign has mapped that pantone on its own Library, as you said.

Thanks for help!

Best

Francesco

[Eugene Tyson]

Just to circle back on this – the key issue seems to be that when placing a file in InDesign, it’s grabbing the LAB version of the Pantone from the swatch library, which is overriding any CMYK values baked into the original file. If your final goal is a specific CMYK breakdown, I’d still recommend handling that conversion inside InDesign using the Ink Manager to alias the spot to your desired CMYK build. That way, you stay in control of the values without relying on PitStop to clean it up after the fact. It’s saved me a few headaches on press. Just throwing that out there in case it helps. 

[Francesco Stefanini]

Thanks Eugene for your help

Yes, we need to be careful about Spot management and eventually conversion in CMYK in our workflow.

Francesco

[rob day]

 and eventually conversion in CMYK in our workflow.

I agree with Brad @ Roaring Mouse  on using the Pantone Lab values and making a color managed conversion from Lab to the final output CMYK space (which should be the document’s assigned CMYK space, Edit>Assign Profiles...).

All you have to do for that to happen is change the Swatch Color Type from Spot to Process which will remove the Spot Color from Separations Preview

Then you can color manage the color’s conversion to CMYK on Export to PDF. This would convert the Lab values to the Document CMYK profile—PSO Coated v3 in this case.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

@Francesco Stefanini . As I mentioned as a reply to rob's reply, the spot colour you had was from the OLD deprecated set of Pantone Spot colours from before CS6, so this definition probably came from a legacy file that was made years ago. Back in the days where the actual press processes and way of making plates was much different than it is now, a lot of dot gain occurred by the time it hit paper, sespecially on lighter tints, so those light values (0C 2M 3Y 6K) would gain considerably

So it comes down to what you want to match: As a prepress person, our job is to match the actual Pantone swatch, not some old outdated CMYK values, so we would be using the LAB values.

Of course, if you are printing this colour as a spot ink, it doesn't matter what the definition is, the pressman will use an actual Pantone Warm 1 ink to print with. It's only the name of the ink that matters.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

To give some history: In the "old days" (i.e Pagemaker 🙂 ), when placing an external file that contained a spot colour with different definitions than Pagemaker had in its own library, it would ask if you wanted to keep PM's definition or replace it with the incoming one. This caused lots of trouble in prepress and it was justifiably removed as an option when InDesign came out.